Is it possible that the Ali of Quarry 2 was the best version ?

That Chamberlain-Ali thread makes this one feel balanced in comparison.

 

That's possible,, at this point he was as seasoned as a professional fighter could be. He was literally in command in the ring.

 

Physically, no ,but mentally? absolutely.

 

Muhammad Ali 32-5 record (20 knockouts) VS THE TOP TEN is pretty much unbelievable, some of those he fought 2 or 3 times. HE REALLY DID FIGHT THE WHO'S WHO OF THE HEAVYWEIGHTS! Not to mention LiGHT HEAVY CHAMP Bob Foster

HIS 24-0 RECORD VS EVERYONE ELSE HAD SOME THAT COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN IN THE TOP TEN AT THE TIME AS WELL, Chuvalo II, Blin, Blue Lewis, Dunn, Mathis, London etc. these guys were in top tens of course, just not at the time they fought Ali.

 

I actually think Ali II was just a bump in the road for Quarry. I think he peaked from '67 to '71, and had a bad time in '72, but then had the best year of his career in 1973.

 

We discussed Alin 71-73 in another thread, but this thread is more suitable. You thought he was very poor those years, bar FOTC I think you said.

I only think he can be seen as poor compared to his prime, 64-67. He easily defeated top contenders like Quarry and Ellis, shutout MacFoster and Mathis, beat Chuvalo and Bugner clearly on points and stopped Lewis and Patterson (who was ranked third or fourth then, I think). Add top ranked Norton to that, even though it was very close. So that's seven top 10 ranked fighters, four or five of them in the top 5, clearly beaten with one exception, often in dominant fashion, plus the LHW champion Bob Foster and formerly ranked Mathis.

The big blip was of course the loss to Norton, but all in all a very good run. That's a good career in itself, and Ali did it during little more than two years when past his prime with only one win that was close.

 

My problem with Ali in those years were not his opponents or his activity. I applaud Ali for taking on the best fighters available and for fighting often, I just think he lacked IMPRESSIVE wins during that time frame.

 

Dominating and stopping top 5 contenders like Ellis and Quarry are impressive wins in my book. While he seemed to play away the first four rounds against Floyd, he still stopped him - the first one to do so since he did in '65. In fact, Floyd hadn't lost clearly since then.

 

If we just stop thinking about the super sharp Ali in the 60's and the fact that his shape for many of these 70's fights wasn't what it should have been, it's clear that it was a very good run.

 

The Quarry win was impressive, but the Ellis fight was awful. Everything that Ali is known for is nowhere to be seen in the fight against Ellis. Ali was out of shape, his footwork was slower, and so were his hands, and his timing was off, his punches seemed to lack the power that they had had in his previous fights.

 

At 32 I have no doubt that he was stronger and cuter than pre exile. He had a break with the lay off don't forget when assessing him, may of dimmed him in speed but that would've dropped anyway, but he wasn't taking punishment or hard training camps in that period. He was meeting much better comp when he returned, that's a massive factor also. Some say his lay off is a great excuse for losses against fighters post exile, that he would've lost to anyway without the lay off

 

Ellis was pretty slick and Ali missed some, but also landed some very nice ones. Yes, his shape could have been better, but I think you're doing the glass half empty here.

There is for example a sequence of at least a minute when Ali bounces around with his hands at his hips and parries everything Ellis throws with his shoulders. A world class fighter - a sharp, accurate puncher with pretty quick hands. He is treating him like a junior sparring partner. Playing with him.

And Ellis hardly lands anything consequential throughout the fight from memory, while Ali rocks him several times before finishing him. And the blow that spells the end is a beautiful uppercut while moving backwards if I remember correctly.

You and I have different concepts of "awful" I must say.

 

I just think with all the Ali fights that there are, that the Ellis fight is not good at all.

 

As I've said, it's not on par with his 60's title fights, but he dropped a level with the lay-off. But the only other fights where he looked clearly better are the Frazier fights, the Foreman fight, the Quarry rematch and the Norton rematch. And beating a top contender with that relative ease is always impressive imo.

 

I can think of several other great Ali performances from the 70s: Frazier II being one of his best imo and Shavers also being one of his toughest tests. Bonavena and Lyle both ended in two of Ali's best finishes in his career.