is it safe to say that pac is not 1-dimensional anymore?

CJLightweight · Jul 2, 2008

divac said:

I wish I had the time to come in here full throttle and know whats been said and what is going on in the thread, but I see that the thread has gone on 12 pages now........

Out of courtesy to MT, who asked me for my opinion and to come aboard the thread.......I'm going to post an opinion I believe may be relevant on this thread that I posted on a different thread I've been posting on for a couple of days now.....

I have opiniated on Pac's boxing improvement before.

Alot of people took note that Pac was incorporating a little bit more boxin finesse, and using his right hand more from way back during his rematches with Erik Morales

I noted back then that I too saw some improvent in his skill, but that I did'nt see it of the magnitude that most Pac fans made it out to be.
.....although Pac had improved vs Morales, so too had Morales regressed, and done so more significantly than what Pac had improved.

While alot of people here were dissapointed with the fight MAB and Pac gave in their rematch, I was one of the very few posters around here
that noted and gave Pac props for the way he went about using his speed, and quickness, at a time where MAB gameplan of lateral movement and jabbing relied and required for Pac to come to him.
Pac was smart enough to not take the bait, and actually turned the tables on MAB by forcing him to come to him.
.....when Pac's speed and quickness forced MAB to have to be the aggressor, essentially MAB was'nt brave enough to have to take the risks that comes with being the aggressor.
A fabulous gameplan executed nearly to perfection from Pac.
I was impressed, but also noted at a time when Pac fans in particular were of the opinion that Pac could do the same with JMM.....
.....I noted that the gameplan that Pac executed well vs MAB, would not work against JMM, because JMM had more dimensions in his punching arsenal other than a jab that MAB set to rely on.

Pac is a good enough boxer that he can execute his boxing against a fighter who is out to just use his left hand, which was MAB.
To do it against a masterclass boxer like JMM who uses both hands equally effeciently and is alot better at finding punching angles, would be a whole other ballgame for Pac to solve.
.....and I was right. It was Pac's left hand power that saved him in the eyes of those that are enamored by knockdowns.
Other than the knockdown, JMM pretty much controlled the pace and tempo of the proceedings, and at least from my point of view, clearly outboxed Manny Paquiao.

Did I see some boxing improvement form Pac, from his first fight with JMM?
The only thing I can say is that he showed more versatility than he had done back then, by being a bit more patient and not being as predictable with his one, two's .....but at the same time, because of Pac's patience and using more of his right hand, I thought during the fight that it opened the avenues for JMM to land consistently with harder punches with both of his hands than he had done to Pac in fight one.

Let me put it this way. I believe Pac has gotten good enough that he can make adjustments as long as he's been practiced to fight a certain way in the Gym, as he did vs MAB........
He turned the tables on MAB in their rematch, because the Pac team knew exactly by watching MAB's rematch fight with Rocky Juarez, that he would try and do the same to Pac in their rematch.
....so Pac was specifically schooled in training to be able to adjust and handle the move and jab strategy that MAB employed.
MAB was so scared to consistently try anything other than the jab and move, that Pac never had to make any other adjustments during the fight.
You could see that MAB troubled and actually got the better of Pac, whenever he did anything other than jab and run.
The few times that MAB got aggressive, he actually got the better of Pac, but MAB was too timid and never had the audacity to sustian it.
A quality performance by Pac nonetheless.

What alot of Pac fans are not seeing, is that Pac has'nt gotten good enough, and most likely never will......is too make the in ring adjustments to compete on a round by round basis with a complete fighter like JMM, who is'nt at all timid to let his hands go and will make adjustments from minute to minute, albeit I"ll admit there are very few JMM's in boxing today, and so that truly makes Manny Pacquiao a hard beat for most fighters in boxing today.

A great boxer makes adjustments on the fly, round by round, minute by minute, and even second by second.
My honest opinion is that Pac is an improved boxer, but is'nt and most likely imo, never will be good enough to be labeled and called a great boxer, thus imo other than actually scoring a KO of one, will most likely never legitly win by decision vs a great boxer fighting at a high level.

.....and before anyone gets excited, as I dont consider Pac to be a great boxer, I do consider Manny Pacquiao to be a great fighter.
Click to expand...

you should have made a different thread with this post:good

DanePugilist · Jul 2, 2008

Pacman showed very good upper body movement to dodge blows, which reminded me of Jet Li.

puga_ni_nana · Jul 2, 2008

divac said:

I wish I had the time to come in here full throttle and know whats been said and what is going on in the thread, but I see that the thread has gone on 12 pages now........

Out of courtesy to MT, who asked me for my opinion and to come aboard the thread.......I'm going to post an opinion I believe may be relevant on this thread that I posted on a different thread I've been posting on for a couple of days now.....

I have opiniated on Pac's boxing improvement before.

Alot of people took note that Pac was incorporating a little bit more boxin finesse, and using his right hand more from way back during his rematches with Erik Morales

I noted back then that I too saw some improvent in his skill, but that I did'nt see it of the magnitude that most Pac fans made it out to be.
.....although Pac had improved vs Morales, so too had Morales regressed, and done so more significantly than what Pac had improved.

While alot of people here were dissapointed with the fight MAB and Pac gave in their rematch, I was one of the very few posters around here
that noted and gave Pac props for the way he went about using his speed, and quickness, at a time where MAB gameplan of lateral movement and jabbing relied and required for Pac to come to him.
Pac was smart enough to not take the bait, and actually turned the tables on MAB by forcing him to come to him.
.....when Pac's speed and quickness forced MAB to have to be the aggressor, essentially MAB was'nt brave enough to have to take the risks that comes with being the aggressor.
A fabulous gameplan executed nearly to perfection from Pac.
I was impressed, but also noted at a time when Pac fans in particular were of the opinion that Pac could do the same with JMM.....
.....I noted that the gameplan that Pac executed well vs MAB, would not work against JMM, because JMM had more dimensions in his punching arsenal other than a jab that MAB set to rely on.

Pac is a good enough boxer that he can execute his boxing against a fighter who is out to just use his left hand, which was MAB.
To do it against a masterclass boxer like JMM who uses both hands equally effeciently and is alot better at finding punching angles, would be a whole other ballgame for Pac to solve.
.....and I was right. It was Pac's left hand power that saved him in the eyes of those that are enamored by knockdowns.
Other than the knockdown, JMM pretty much controlled the pace and tempo of the proceedings, and at least from my point of view, clearly outboxed Manny Paquiao.

Did I see some boxing improvement form Pac, from his first fight with JMM?
The only thing I can say is that he showed more versatility than he had done back then, by being a bit more patient and not being as predictable with his one, two's .....but at the same time, because of Pac's patience and using more of his right hand, I thought during the fight that it opened the avenues for JMM to land consistently with harder punches with both of his hands than he had done to Pac in fight one.

Let me put it this way. I believe Pac has gotten good enough that he can make adjustments as long as he's been practiced to fight a certain way in the Gym, as he did vs MAB........
He turned the tables on MAB in their rematch, because the Pac team knew exactly by watching MAB's rematch fight with Rocky Juarez, that he would try and do the same to Pac in their rematch.
....so Pac was specifically schooled in training to be able to adjust and handle the move and jab strategy that MAB employed.
MAB was so scared to consistently try anything other than the jab and move, that Pac never had to make any other adjustments during the fight.
You could see that MAB troubled and actually got the better of Pac, whenever he did anything other than jab and run.
The few times that MAB got aggressive, he actually got the better of Pac, but MAB was too timid and never had the audacity to sustian it.
A quality performance by Pac nonetheless.

What alot of Pac fans are not seeing, is that Pac has'nt gotten good enough, and most likely never will......is too make the in ring adjustments to compete on a round by round basis with a complete fighter like JMM, who is'nt at all timid to let his hands go and will make adjustments from minute to minute, albeit I"ll admit there are very few JMM's in boxing today, and so that truly makes Manny Pacquiao a hard beat for most fighters in boxing today.

A great boxer makes adjustments on the fly, round by round, minute by minute, and even second by second.
My honest opinion is that Pac is an improved boxer, but is'nt and most likely imo, never will be good enough to be labeled and called a great boxer, thus imo other than actually scoring a KO of one, will most likely never legitly win by decision vs a great boxer fighting at a high level.

.....and before anyone gets excited, as I dont consider Pac to be a great boxer, I do consider Manny Pacquiao to be a great fighter.
Click to expand...

nice post divac. aside from the part that marquez outboxed pac in the rematch which is certainly not, this post is good. :good

CJLightweight · Jul 2, 2008

puga_ni_nana said:

after marquez and morales, there was a call for roach to improve pac's being one-dimensional. roach was too sensitive with those comments that he gradualy started to develop pac into a complete fighter.

i first notice this during his larios fight where he did not rush larios into submission and instead elected to box just to try with some moves.

the solis fight was a luckluster performance. yes he did ko'ed him but it was just because of his power that pull him thru. that is also the time when he logged the least amount of training and it was right after his election defeat.

then the barrera rematch is where i think pac has changed remarkably. during that fight, he did not let himself drawn into mab's strategy. he wisely use his speed and darts in and out. but you can see that he no longer lunges and either pulls-out or side-steps quickly out of exhanges. the marquez rematch confirmed this and he was able to box with the best technical boxer around today and did well.
Click to expand...

plus if pac wants to stay in the game long enough he certainly needs to developed himself being a better boxer, he can't fight war kind of fights continously. The fight with diaz was certainly impressive but it is not due to being a war but because of pac getting better as boxer

mad_takamura · Jul 2, 2008

divac said:

I wish I had the time to come in here full throttle and know whats been said and what is going on in the thread, but I see that the thread has gone on 12 pages now........

Out of courtesy to MT, who asked me for my opinion and to come aboard the thread.......I'm going to post an opinion I believe may be relevant on this thread that I posted on a different thread I've been posting on for a couple of days now.....

I have opiniated on Pac's boxing improvement before.

Alot of people took note that Pac was incorporating a little bit more boxin finesse, and using his right hand more from way back during his rematches with Erik Morales

I noted back then that I too saw some improvent in his skill, but that I did'nt see it of the magnitude that most Pac fans made it out to be.
.....although Pac had improved vs Morales, so too had Morales regressed, and done so more significantly than what Pac had improved.

While alot of people here were dissapointed with the fight MAB and Pac gave in their rematch, I was one of the very few posters around here
that noted and gave Pac props for the way he went about using his speed, and quickness, at a time where MAB gameplan of lateral movement and jabbing relied and required for Pac to come to him.
Pac was smart enough to not take the bait, and actually turned the tables on MAB by forcing him to come to him.
.....when Pac's speed and quickness forced MAB to have to be the aggressor, essentially MAB was'nt brave enough to have to take the risks that comes with being the aggressor.
A fabulous gameplan executed nearly to perfection from Pac.
I was impressed, but also noted at a time when Pac fans in particular were of the opinion that Pac could do the same with JMM.....
.....I noted that the gameplan that Pac executed well vs MAB, would not work against JMM, because JMM had more dimensions in his punching arsenal other than a jab that MAB set to rely on.

Pac is a good enough boxer that he can execute his boxing against a fighter who is out to just use his left hand, which was MAB.
To do it against a masterclass boxer like JMM who uses both hands equally effeciently and is alot better at finding punching angles, would be a whole other ballgame for Pac to solve.
.....and I was right. It was Pac's left hand power that saved him in the eyes of those that are enamored by knockdowns.
Other than the knockdown, JMM pretty much controlled the pace and tempo of the proceedings, and at least from my point of view, clearly outboxed Manny Paquiao.

Did I see some boxing improvement form Pac, from his first fight with JMM?
The only thing I can say is that he showed more versatility than he had done back then, by being a bit more patient and not being as predictable with his one, two's .....but at the same time, because of Pac's patience and using more of his right hand, I thought during the fight that it opened the avenues for JMM to land consistently with harder punches with both of his hands than he had done to Pac in fight one.

Let me put it this way. I believe Pac has gotten good enough that he can make adjustments as long as he's been practiced to fight a certain way in the Gym, as he did vs MAB........
He turned the tables on MAB in their rematch, because the Pac team knew exactly by watching MAB's rematch fight with Rocky Juarez, that he would try and do the same to Pac in their rematch.
....so Pac was specifically schooled in training to be able to adjust and handle the move and jab strategy that MAB employed.
MAB was so scared to consistently try anything other than the jab and move, that Pac never had to make any other adjustments during the fight.
You could see that MAB troubled and actually got the better of Pac, whenever he did anything other than jab and run.
The few times that MAB got aggressive, he actually got the better of Pac, but MAB was too timid and never had the audacity to sustian it.
A quality performance by Pac nonetheless.

What alot of Pac fans are not seeing, is that Pac has'nt gotten good enough, and most likely never will......is too make the in ring adjustments to compete on a round by round basis with a complete fighter like JMM, who is'nt at all timid to let his hands go and will make adjustments from minute to minute, albeit I"ll admit there are very few JMM's in boxing today, and so that truly makes Manny Pacquiao a hard beat for most fighters in boxing today.

A great boxer makes adjustments on the fly, round by round, minute by minute, and even second by second.
My honest opinion is that Pac is an improved boxer, but is'nt and most likely imo, never will be good enough to be labeled and called a great boxer, thus imo other than actually scoring a KO of one, will most likely never legitly win by decision vs a great boxer fighting at a high level.

.....and before anyone gets excited, as I dont consider Pac to be a great boxer, I do consider Manny Pacquiao to be a great fighter.
Click to expand...

i could'nt have said it better.
divac you're a great analyst and though we are off to different sides of the coin i would always see the brilliance of your observation. i respect jmm as a counter-punching god and even credited him as being better than pbf in terms of technical skill. i was just wondering if you could lend maestro a gram of your brain so that we would have a better discussion that is worth anyone's time, here at esb.
bravo divac. nice analysis. not that you praised pac as a great fighter but by your analysis only...:good
but like i said i'll wait for a better boxer to face pac, if pac showed his finnese he showed in the david fight: then i guess i'm justified. may be against nate or juan i'm confident he could do that. to jmm or guz, we'll see. if he did, then i'm right. we'll just w8 and see...

puga_ni_nana · Jul 2, 2008

mad_takamura said:

puga i've edited my last post for you. i hope you understand. i mean he's comfy at 135 not 130, ok? sorry. quite loud here.

for me, his first change was in the em2 fight. he was'nt rushing and bobbing and weaving was his game, but still 1-dimensional. and then the larios fight also showed improved boxing skills, this is the first time i saw the right being more worthy a hand. from there pac vastly improved. his right hook and jab is the clear difference from what pac was up to an improved technical, though not on pbf, or jmm level obviously, thinking and matured boxer at the david fight.
Click to expand...

i don't remember the 2nd morales fight clearly but he did well during the latter rounds that turn the tide of the game. i would check this fight again if he did improved from marquez and morales1.

jupzrooni · Jul 2, 2008

omg where is he?

i'll miss that 12-year old buffoon:rofl

puga_ni_nana · Jul 2, 2008

Andre Rieu said:

Has Maestro been banned already? I don't see his posts anymore. Good for him! :hi::hi::hi: Bye, maestro!!! :rofl:hi::hi::hi:
Click to expand...

i guess your right. he was totally erased from this thread.

well time to make a new hande.

mad_takamura · Jul 2, 2008

Ill be off now. Pac d best and fellow brown bros and boxing pundits alike. i wait for your opinion: i would love to hear from you...tnx. keep the views coming. i wish i could have made a poll but i don;t really know how. but opinions matter to me more than numbers. i don't like bandwagon mentality and "popular majority" caused opinions but true views of individual minds.. tnx...

hulk....LEAP

Chert · Jul 2, 2008

CJLightweight said:

plus if pac wants to stay in the game long enough he certainly needs to developed himself being a better boxer, he can't fight war kind of fights continously. The fight with diaz was certainly impressive but it is not due to being a war but because of pac getting better as boxer
Click to expand...

i don't think pac is staying that much longer in the fight game. there are reports that he may retire by the end of next year as roach is also thinking of hanging up the punch mitts by that time. the teacher and pupil may be planning to ride off into the sunset together. if this is true, then pac has about 3 to 4 more fights left before he calls it a day.

enzo · Jul 2, 2008

You *******s stop owning that maestro guy and eat dogs or something...

batang kanto · Jul 2, 2008

pac has skills and he can show it against contenders and gate-keepers. when he fights at the elite level, the use of skills would be limited.

this happens to all fighters even against extremely skilled ones like PBF who was short of godly when he beat gatti but wasn't as godly when he fought dela hoya, proof is that the fight ended in SD.

as i said, pac was forced to rely on his 1-2 combination and his speed which were his best arsenal to get to marquez in the first fight because marquez's technical skills almost nullified most of pac's arsenal. for example, pac could use his right hand against barrera when they first fought but not anymore when he was fighting marquez because marquez is quick to counter that right hand which is slower than his left.

granted that his skills aren't showcased much in his elite fights, roach and pac were still able to refine them and added other dimensions to them such that it isn't right to say pac has not improved his skills at all. he was showcasing more skills in his later elite fights including the second marquez match and they showed even more in lesser fights like larios and diaz.

batang kanto · Jul 2, 2008

oh, *******s are slow to capture maestro. we should have hanged him before he got banned

mad_takamura · Jul 2, 2008

man. i'm sorry. next time i see a pacteron douchebag, i won't ask mods to ban them. we could have a great time pawning and owning them...

puga_ni_nana · Jul 2, 2008

mad_takamura said:

man. i'm sorry. next time i see a pacteron douchebag, i won't ask mods to ban them. we could have a great time pawning and owning them...
Click to expand...

i thought you were pissed when he ruined your thread?
don't worry, he sure would come back. just like allblack has many reincarnations. there would be new chapters to this one.

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