is it sanctioning bodies or evolution?

So tell me does fat (heavier) Ali that faced Norton have a better chin than the vs Foreman and Frazier? Of course he doesnt because weight doesnt increase durability.

He wasnt bad in the 70s, but one of the things that makes him the greatest ever was his ability to dominate a guarantee

Not at all, Cooper caught him clean. That shot would have put any version of Ali, down if he caught him clean in the same way. Just because someone like Foreman is a bigger stronger puncher than cooper, doesnt mean that he is capable of catching a fighter clean like Cooper did, in every fight.

To be honest, Foremans effort (and he was never the very best of the 90s) is as close to living proof that the 90s fighters (below the best 2 or 3) simply were not as big hitting or as good as the 70s. Young george foreman would have KOd old Foreman in 1 round (even easier than Young Toney would beat old Toney).

Holyfield could take a punch at any of those weights. It is no coincidence that his best performances finished pretty much after Bowe, where he decided to trade with the big heavys, rather than to box more, like the lighter version of Holy did. After this point, it was more his heart and will to win that enabled him to get good results against Tyson and to a lesser extent Lewis. The more he went up in weight, the less effective he was, although in fairness, this was due more to his aging than anything else. Which is back to my original point. If he fought at heavyweight earlier, in his career, he could have forged a heavy legacy and would of beat many bigger heavys, even at the lighter weight. Incidentally, things were much easier for Holy back then, he only had to beat Douglas to become the man. If the situation were today, he would need have needed to beat Douglas, Tyson, Lewis and Bowe before he became number one, and if he lost to one fighter on this route (which he did) then suddenly he would have his chin questioned due to his weight and risk losing his reputation and box office draw. Why would any smaller weight fighter attempt this? especially considering that today, unlike when holy came up, and previously spinks and others, none of the 4 title matches would actually be very big money fights. Certainly not as big as fighting some of the smaller weighted fighters.

I admit that Valuev has a good chin so probably a bad example. Would Butterbean be a better one? but Vlad illustrates the point perfectly. If size meant durability, he would be a beast, but durability is made up of other facts.

Not at all, for a start, he would be an idiot to even try "slugging it out". I doubt that even the non pareil Jack Dempsey Could slug it out. But as i said, he would definitely put up a better effort than the fat ballooned version of himself.

I am not saying that the light heavys are better on whole than the heavys (even though they do have better average skill), or even that the best light heavy will always beat the best heavy or even one of the best heavys. What i am saying that a great light heavy would still beat many good heavys and in some circumstances the Worlds best heavy. This has always been proved and will always be proved. it happened in the past with Fitzsimmons and Tunney. We saw Braddock Beat Baer, we saw Spinks do it to Holmes. And more recently we saw Jones beat Ruiz, Toney compete at heavy and to a lesser extent a reasonably small chris byrd. In the era of super heavys many people argue that the two best were Prime Tyson and Holyfield, neither of whom were spectacularly big. Former light heavy champ Michael Moorer also held a title, as did Spinks. In reality, history (even present history) suggests that this is the case and that is not arguable. I know most point to Great light heavys like Moore and Foster who were knocked out at heavy, but look at the guys that they lost to. They were capable of beating any heavys around anyway.

The whole argument of this thread is that while a little guy can still be the best in the world and beat the heavys, he will not because of the weight divisions, which mean that the bigger guys (who cant fight in the lower divisions) will always dominate the ratings, because no smaller guy is going to risk fighting a bigger guy (unless they get out of shape). And by the time they clean out their own weight and division, they will be at the stage where even if they do move up in weight, they will be past their best and getting ripe for the picking (even at their own weight). In these circumstances, if a Bob Fitzsimmons were born today, i doubt he would even fight at Heavyweight.

 

But that is my argument, by the time most fighters go up in weight, they have gone up in weight because they are older, have sacrificed their speed and endurance training, and are generally not as good as they were when they were younger (there obviously some even many exception but they are getting fewer and far between). If they beat the heavier fighter in an inferior condition to what they used to be then obviously the earlier, lighter version would beat that version too (in most cases). If they take the heavier persons shots at the heavier weight, they will generally do so at the lighter weight. Now weather or not lack of strength means the lighter fighter cant land and is obliterated is a slightly different argument.

And not so much necessarilly that he was a better puncher, but just that this particular punch that landed was.

We know for sure that his chin holds up to the superheavy punchers. He wasnt the best, but he was probably in the top 5, or at least capable of beating all but the top 5. At the very worst, we know that the second best fighter of the 70s, prime for prime would have been a top 5 fighter in the 90s.

I actually do, he would hit him 2 or 3 times before old foreman set himself. It doesnt matter how durable you are, if you are being hit cleanly by foreman and not running or defending like mad, you are in big trouble. Even if he didnt, he would totally dominate him.

My oppinion is that holyfield was at his best when was lighter and using a boxing style. Against Bowe, he tried to go to war and outpower him, which worked against him. Holyfield should have used the same tactics he used against Foreman. I think that he declined quite a bit after Bowe. Dont forget that of all the superheavys only two were really in the same class as the two main smaller heavys - Holyfield and Tyson. Tyson, only got dominated when he began to train so much for power.

I know he is not world class. That is why i am saying that size is not the be all and end all for durability. Do you not think that a world class middleweight like say Bernard Hopkins is likely to have as good a chin as Butterbean?

Almost certainly. Would you be so confident that he would KO a prime middleweight version of James Toney?

My point is that by the time that they get around to fighting at higher weights, half the time they are fat ballooned up versions of themself. Look no further than Toney for an example.

I don't see your point? Like 90% of the money in boxing is in the heavyweight division, and the heavyweight champion of the world has traditionally been one of the most famous athletes alive.

If they can beat the big guys, why not?

Also - why do you say they don't "risk" fighting bigger guys? Aren't big guys the same as small guys, after all...?[/quote]

I think that you misunderstand me. Vlad Klitchsko (assuming he is the best heavy) is the best fighter in the world at the moment. Weight does make a big difference. But a classy big little man will beat an average big man.

Joe Calzaghe, for example, would beat lots of heavyweights. Who knows, he may beat a top 10 ranked heavyweight. But make no mistake, plenty would knock him out. With their power, they even knock out the good Superheavys when they land clean. Calzaghe would make a lot more money than most top 10 heavys. I doubt he would be good enough to actually beat the top 2 or 3 curent superheavys like say a harry Greb, but then again, i dont rank Calzaghe nearly as highly as greb at his own weight anyway. But why would he choose now, to fight say Jameel McLine and then Nicolai Valuev, to maybe then get a shot at a portion of the world title, when he can fight someone his own weight division and earn more money (like hopkins or Tarver). The heavyweight division is not currently the cash cow, particularly at anywhere under world title level that it used to be. This means that the little fighters will not fight against heavweights like they used to, and therefore they will not beat heavyweights like they used to.