Is it weird that I don't see anything special in Jack Dempsey?

Don't apologise for being condescending its ,"second nature to you now" My Fair Lady.

Seriously S I enjoy your posts we may not agree very often but when you are sober[similar to myself]you are a veritable TITAN!



I haven't read Clay's book on Miske ,I'll probably buy the Langford one first.

Stay well!

 

There was a bias that favored the heavyweight division and in particular fighters that fought primarily in NY. However not one in 400 is a little extreme.

 

The issue I have with Wills saying he had to carry Firpo and Madden as per Mullins orders is 1) fighters generally make excuses for poor performances and 2) more importantly it doesn't correspond with the available footage in the Firpo bout. After Firpo gets decked on the break, Wills certaintly seems like he is attempting to go for the finish. He tries hard to wail away with his right on Firpo's head. So I can't buy that.

To me Wills was probably already in steep decline, a sentiment I believe Tunney shared, as shown by his poor performances against mundane opponents Madden and Firpo and his routes at the hands of Sharkey and Uzcudun.

 

You got a link to this remastered footage, I wanna see it!

 

Wills deserved a title shot no question.

By the time of theTunney v Dempsey fights I think he had gone back
considerably, as had Dempsey.

 

I agree with that 100%. Wills deserved the shot, and both he and Dempsey declined by the mid 20s. Dempsey lost his legs and Wills from what I can see can't avoid being hit.

 

I liked your book Klompton for the insight into fighters noone ever gets to read about. And the pics were great. But, you have no objectivity at all when it comes to Greb, Tunney, Dempsey, et al. Facts is, that same Firpo who you say Wills easily manhandled was destroyed by Dempsey in a little over 1 rd. You believe nothing good about Jack but anything good that Wills swears to. That is biased bull****, like I said, I enjoyed most of your book, but revisionist historians are not for me and that is exactly what you are.

 

He definitely has an ax to grind.The pantheons of champions has JD at the top and I find no new evidence or anything to change that.

 

To take that argument further, most of the great flyweights of that period have been forgotten, and even their records have evaporated in many cases!

 

Awe the good old days, when the heavyweight division was worth discussing. I vaguely recall those times.

 

Maybe not eerie. Because 2 books about him paint him as St. Harry the undirty, but everywhere else in history he is one of the dirtiest along w/ Zivic.This everybody was out to get Harry bull**** is getting ridiculous. If he was a clean, clean-living, unbeatable champ he would havee gotten many votes. I believe the ones who saw him and could compare w/ other fighters. On any subject you can pick thru articles to strengthen your point and omit ones that contradict your point. I see it all the times in bios and autobios to think it hasn"t happened here. Greb was great yes. But unbeatable and a clean fighter. No way. When you write about an athlete you need to be objective, not subjective.

 

Bull**** and you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Im not objective toward Tunney and Dempsey because I point out their faults? Sorry but pretending Tunney and Dempsey were saints (something Ive never done with Greb by the way and if youve read my book you clearly would know that I wrote about the good and bad and hid nothing) is biased, not the other way around. A Flame of Pure Fire is biased garbage because it is a totally one sided picture of a man who had a dark side with a lot warts. The book on Tunney is biased for the same reason. But when I point out the simple facts of these guys that are part of the public record that most want to forget because they are heros Im biased and revisionist. Bull****, I utterly reject that and challenge you to refute anything Ive written on either man. You cant because its all fact. Did Wills not dominate Firpo? Did he not easily and trouble free outpoint the man? Did Dempsey not get dropped three times and knocked out of the ring in a fight that even the films put out by his own promoter admit he "came within a whisker of losing the title?" Yes, he stopped Firpo. I never said he didnt. But in the process he got hit several times, hurt, and dropped by a totally unskilled plant that Rickard had brought here and promoted to a title shot (over Wills btw) for the express purpose of promoting an "exotic savage" as a Dempsey foil to get stopped. Thats a fact. If Ive said anything above that isnt factual I await your rebuttal.

 

Nobody said he was the cleanest fighter ever and I addressed it in my book. BUT I also illustrated clearly (and with sources) that his reputation was unfairly garnered. If you choose not to believe that Greb was savaged by the New York press thats fine but the facts are against you and its ignorance on your part to claim you read my book and dont agree. The sources are there go double check them. They were put there specifically for people like you who would come here and claim I was wrong. Sorry you cant argue with the facts. I never said Harry was unbeatable. Nobody is. But he was as close to that as a fighter can come as his record suggests. If you choose not believe that then you tell me who can look at the stellar list of fighters he fought and beat throughout his career and tell which one of us is biased against someone.

 

I am not sure this is so correct.

Going straight off Wikipedia here, so i am happy to be corrected.

But in 1917 he drew with Jackie Clark and lost to Mike Gibbons. He then went one on one of the greatest streaks ever, but in 1920 he split two fights with Tommy Gibbons (who had previously beaten him). Nothing wrong with that, but hard to say he was as close to unbeatable as anyone when he was actually beaten. Unlike others like Marciano, Fitzsimmons, Pep, Louis, Leonard etc. We then have another unbeaten run which takes him to 1923 where he has losses to Tunney, Loughran. 1924 had the norfolk loss as well as Tunney and Loughran draws. And by 1926, he was obviously getting older and did have the flowers losses.

I think Greb is one of the greatest, but his dominance (largely because of the era and opponents he chose) are not as great as other fighters who not only looked invincible in their primes, but actually were. John L sullivan pretty much knocked every single opponent out he ever faced in four rounds. that is unbeatable. Even if we overlook Grebs competition, he left far too many fights up to the judges to be considered unbeatable to the extent that others are. "Prime" Don King w/an average fighter would have found a way to get the decision, imo.

Leaving aside the fact that an admittedly light Greb was campaining at a weight where he was never better than the third best in the world at best, behind Dempsey and Wills (again it is hard to be considered unbeatable when it is probably that the two guys who you would have most liked to fight would knock you out), i think that the Gibbons brothers are at worst, very, very close to Greb in ability and talent. I dont think that Greb showed any sort of superiority over these two which suggests that they could not beat him 5 times out of 10 or maybe more. I dont think this translates to Greb being as close to unbeatable as anyone. And i certainly dont think you could say the same against the likes of Louis, Sullivan, Fitzsimmons etc, when in their prime.

Greb was a great fighter and did things that arguably no one else could replicate, but he wasnt as dominant against his peers as many other fighters were.

 

As I said, he wasnt unbeatable, nobody is. BUT he was as close as it gets. Who didnt get beat? Every fighter loses at some point.

Im not sure what your reference to Marciano, Fitz, Leonard, Pep, etc was illustrating. Outside of Marciano (and I dont think many would put him on P4P level with Greb) those guys all suffered losses as well.

The idea that Greb's dominance is because he picked and chose his opposition is ludicrous. He fought and defeated far more HOFers, legit top contenders, and champions than the names you mentioned. The idea that he wasnt unbeatable because he was dominating guys but not KOing them is bizarre. This is a sport where points are awarded and fights are decided on that basis. To rule out anyone who doesnt win the majority of their fights by KO invalidates the vast majority of fighters and a full half of how this sport is determined. So then we are left with the idea that Greb wasnt great because he left himself open to be robbed by the judges (which accounts for some of the losses you mention holding against him) but that does nothing to diminish how good he was. Fitzsimmons lost because of poor officiating to Sharkey, I guess he wasnt dominant, nevermind all of his losses, draws, and that KO to Hall in Australia

I guess I should have been more specific in that I was referring to Greb being unbeatable within a reasonable poundage of his weight but you obviously knew this because you referenced smaller fighters yourself who you think were more unbeatable than Greb. So why argue out of both sides of your mouth and say Greb wasnt unbeatable because HWs could KO him and then mention Leonard and Pep (who surely would have been more beatable at higher weights than Greb)? Its a stupid point to draw a comparison, forgive me for being blunt but it is.

I wont even lower myself to a discussion about Sullivan being unbeatable when he held significant advantages over nearly every opponent he ever fought. Whereas Greb was often fighting at disadvantages and excelled.

Greb wasnt dominant over his peers? Laughable. Yes he split the series with the Gibbons brothers, pre prime on two of those losses, no excuses on one (although there are reasons for it) but when the chips were down and it mattered most he dominated Tommy Gibbons like nobody did until Gene Tunney stopped him years later. Not even Dempsey.

I seem to recall Leonard not winning his series with the smaller Johnny Dundee, is that dominance? I would still say Leonard was dominant as I would with Greb when you get a better understanding of his career and the context and details sorrounding each fight.