Is it weird that I don't see anything special in Jack Dempsey?

Well if I had to guess it might because his record starting from 1900 was 3 losses and 1 win, and since the vast majority of his fighters were pre 1900 maybe he wasn't allowed to be included in the category.

 

Louis would win what today? A poll for the greatest boxer during 1900-1949? I doubt it very much. Today people know a little more about lower weights during that time than the sporting editors of USA newspapers knew in 1950. They sounded like they weren't even aware that there great boxers at other weights too. I've seen several other sporting editors give their vote in their column, and it centered almost exclusively on heavyweights, lower weights weren't even mentioned. Gene Tunney in his article also covered only hw's, like no Benny Leonard or Joe Gans ever existed.

 

An unsubstantiated "quote" written years after Wills died from the same magazine which quoted Greb admitting that Dempsey would knock him out and never really wanted a match with him (which Greb never said in his life). Burt loves quotes from people he supposedly grew up reading 93 years ago. He might enjoy these:

Willie Meehan: "Harry Wills will beat Jack Dempsey if they meet. Why? Because Wills hits the harder of the two, is the bigger man, and is the better boxer."

Nat Fleischer (before he realized pumping up Dempsey sold magazines): "The best heavyweight in the field at present is the negro Harry Wills who probably would knock out Dempsey and Carpentier. All the topnotch heavyweights have barred Wills because the negro outclasses the field in cleverness and heavy hitting. He undoubtedly would score a knockout over Gibbons."

Thats just a couple. I could go on and on but talking about overrated fighters who some people refuse to believe might not be as good as the stories that wrap them in a blanket of invincibility will never be able to see past the rose colored glasses.

 

Do you have to bring my name up in a post I had no part of ? You who has the damn nerve to call me a liar about my age, must love to torment people. I have great respect for your knowledge of Harry Greb and your
research abilities, but little respect for your abrasive character...Someday
you might get close to my age and might mellow a tad...
But I doubt it...

 

For what it's worth Ray Arcel said Wills was no match for Dempsey.

 

Judging from film that is available of Wills, he looks tailor made for Dempsey.

 

I always get a good laugh out of this. Wills dominates every second of the little footage we have of him when he was even halfway near his prime, including easily manhandling Luis Firpo and walking him around the ring and yet hes tailor made for the same guy that Firpo was pushing all over the ring and dropped three times. Nevermind the fact that by his own admission he carried both Firpo and Madden on orders from Paddy Mullin who feared if he looked too good in those fights Dempsey would continue to duck him. I guess he should have lost those two fights and maybe he would have gotten a title shot like Brennan, Gibbons, and Miske did...

 

Huge respect for Arcel. But... just as anyone, he could be biased as well, and everything suggests that he was incredibly biased regarding Jack Dempsey.

 

You sure have guys you dislike, Dempsey,Tunney and Carpentier to name three ,have you ever had a good word to say about any of them? I'ts unrelenting negatives 24/7 ,change the record. You'll put me off your book.

 

Thats possible ,but at least he had seen him fight in the flesh,maybe he was a better judge than those of us trying to assess him from grainy films?:think

 

:good

 

My thought too. It seems to me if I have a choice on who to believe, I'm likely to lean towards someone who actually saw these people fight with their own two eyes. Especially someone as credible as Arcel.

 

I calls em likes I sees em. Ive given them credit where its due but Ive also pointed out the simple facts about their careers that most would rather ignore. Tunney had a lot of "help" outside the ring to get the breaks he got, avoid some of the men he did, win some of the fights he did. Its just a fact. Ive also given him credit for being incredibly focused, a prototype of the modern fighter in terms of his use of the media, incredibly conditioned, a great boxer, and extremely durable. Id say thats a pretty even handed and fair assessment. Carpentier is overrated, benefitted from fixed fights and friendly officiating and the fact that hardly anyone in the states saw hardly anything of him before he fought dempsey and as such his legacy was totally blown out of preportion as a fighter. Ive also given him credit as having a great right hand, heart, and a being in great shape even when he knew the fight was in the bag for him. More importantly he was the single most important factor in the spread of boxing as popular sport on the European continent. Id say that as well is a world of credit and fair assessment. Dempsey was a guy who was hyped to the moon, protected, ducked threatening challenges and then had the benefit of a friendly press to rehab his image after he retired. The guy could do no wrong despite the fact that he ****ed over his biggest challenges and really wasnt a real fighting champion after he won the title in any sense of the word. That being said he too was always in great shape, had heart, was fast and had a great punch. On top of that after he retired he was the most important and approachable ambassador the sport knew for the next 30 years, which also played a roll in the now distorted image of him. People dont like it that Im not afraid to air these guys dirty laundry but I dont make up any of the complaints I have about them Im just not willing to pretend they were unbeatable gods who could do no wrong. I remember you saying I was hard on Tunney in my book. Im still waiting to hear how. Everything I wrote about Tunney is substantiated and rock solid fact. The guy was New York's house fighter and massive powerplayers behind him from various mob figures to gamblers to politicians to the press and his manager. Pointing out he used all of that to hurt Greb's legacy, win a gift decision over him, and leverage a Dempsey fight as a johnny come lately much less ahead of Wills' long standing claim isnt unfair its just stating the facts. Dont blame me if all that reflects negatively on Tunney.

 

I suppose Ray Arcel also would have said he honestly believed his 14 fighters had a good chance to beat Joe Louis. Reality was a bit too harsh.

 

It may be their respective treatments of Greb. Dempsey ducked him like a mug. Tunney got some hometown decisions over him and basically helped ruin him for NYC. Carpentier was too scared to even speak to Greb during his pre-Dempsey visit to the US.