Is Jack Dempsey the most overrated fighter of all time

Not surprising considering Schmeling credited watching the Dempsey-Carpentier film as what inspired him to take up boxing. I would hardly call him unbiased. In reality Schmeling's only interaction with Dempsey during Dempsey's career was an exhibition when Schmeling was a young novice, and watching the same films we watch today.

 

Looked close to belt line but honestly to me doesn’t look like it connected. I just don’t see it. And no I’m not even a Dempsey fan lol

 

Just because Harry Greb went around flexing his muscles, beating his chest and calling out Dempsey as a 'bum,' or newspapers were matching Greb as a must defence for Dempsey (many newspapers were also calling it a mismatch) doesn't mean he was a certain for a title shot.

Dempsey was a lucrative opponent and everyone who was anyone were hoping to get a cut of the pie, not just Greb for example you had multiple challenges and offers from Bill Brennan, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Johnson, Fred Fulton, Frank Moran, Kid Norfolk, Jim Maloney, Harry Wills, Carl Morris, Young Stribling, Ed Smith, Jack Renault, Jack Delaney, Battling Levinsky, George Carpentier, Billy Miske, Jim Coffey, Bob Roper, Bartley Madden amongst others who were all looking for that big fight.

Circa 1922 on, is when Greb was really in contention around the time he beat Gibbons in an eliminator. A national poll WAS conducted in 1922 as well, which didn't have Greb as one of the popular options to challenge Dempsey, with Wills topping the Poll, Gibbons runner-up(They used this to justify his title shot a year later) and Brennan 3rd.

Once the contract was signed on 11th June 1922 this made Wills the top man. It is a crying shame they never got to fight but from now on if you wanted Dempsey you'd have to knock Wills off top. Gibbons and Tunney were both put forward for eliminations with Wills and he refused and stepped aside for whatever reason we don't know, the biggest concensise is that he probably didn't want to harm his chances by getting in the way of white folk having a crack for the world title, his time would come, but as we know now it never did. He could of been paid off, they could of threatened to strip his boxing license, he could of feared losing his num 1 spot, he might of thought at this stage what difference would it make, we just don't know for certain and we can only speculate until we find solid evidence.

If Greb really wanted a crack off Dempsey and Dempsey's team weren't interested, he could of went after Wills, if he had got the victory over Wills, Dempsey's team could never duck a white man who was num 1 contender. (Although Firpo some how managed to get through this net).

I'm not defending Dempsey's reign, it was abysmal to a degree, not necessarily the opposition but the number of times he defended it, he should of told Kearns to take a jump and fought everyone who stepped up, but not many champions did that back then, especially at heavy, it was a cash cow and a road to stardom and a way out basically.

Some people are so hell bent on finding everything negative about Jack Dempsey that they are prejudiced in their research, if he had of fought Greb, these same people would just add a middleweight to his list of defences against bums, nobodies, the ill fated and light heavies.

 

Good post

 

" willard suffered the most terrible beating a human being ever got and lived....
Dempsey lived up to his reputation when he battered a reeling, blood covered wreck all over the ring while the crowd yelled itself insane .". Sportswriter hc witwer. Wow
1919
Just an incredible scene !

 

When will this nonsense just stop

Give Willard a ghost to pull him up when a real heavy handed boxer (like for example ATG Bonecrusher Smith ) hit him UNCONSCIOUS with 50 unanswered punches
and
he got to be buried after the fight.....with no interviews post fight....

 

Babble babble babble babble oo[o I wish Dempsey was dead!!! Babble babble babble babble oooo I wish Dempsey would get out of my head ! Babbble babbble bbaabbbble babbbble

 

On the value of contemporary opinion, I will make the following observation.

Yes it is plausible that the public bought into a hype job, but I don't find it plausible that fighters and trainers of the day bought into a hype job.

They would have known what they were looking at.

It is plausible that Dempsey was not as good as they thought he was, but it is not plausible that they were all idiots.

 

Mr slaps knows his history !

 

Thanks for the history lesson on Greb. I needed it. However, its a bit funny that you make this case for Greb NOT being in contention for Dempsey by listing specifically 19 names of men who ALSO wanted a shot at Dempsey. Of those 19 names Greb beat 9, had three (Carpentier, Delaney, and Stribling) back out of fights with him and one (Moran) get knocked out of a fight with him. Eight of those named had already fought Dempsey at least once and of those eight Greb had defeated five decisively. Other names you failed to mention, who got shots were Tunney and Firpo. Greb had defeated Tunney, and Firpo would also refuse to face Greb when approached by promoters, instead trying to get them to sign a much less difficult opponent. Nobody else on that list or who Dempsey defended against could throw up those numbers. None of this helps your argument.

The poll had nothing to do with Gibbons getting a title shot. Absolutely nothing. Gibbons got his title shot because Shelby, Montana, as a boom town, was trying to increase tourism and their profile. As one means of doing that Body Johnson cooked up the idea to bring a HW championship to Shelby. They partnered up with twin cities promoter Mike Collins who was associated with the Gibbons brothers. Gibbons, already being one of the top contenders and from the upper midwest was a logical choice. There were at least half a dozen polls by various newspapers and magazines at this time to figure out who SHOULD fight Dempsey with Wills dominating all or most of them by wide margins. Didnt matter because polls were completely unofficial. No promoter was going to be beholden to this newspaper or that magazine merely because of a write in campaign.

Wills had been considered Dempsey's top contender since as early as a couple of days after the Willard fight when Dempsey was asked specifically if he would defend against Wills and immediately drew the color line. This was cemented a year later when Wills knocked out Fulton and broke his ribs in the process during an elimination bout in which Dempsey had agreed to face the winner only to sign the day after the Fulton fight to fight Billy Miske who had just come out of retirement due to a serious illness that would eventually kill him. And one last point: There was no contract signed. There was a piece of paper signed that said Dempsey agreed to fight Wills on an unspecified date, for an unspecified amount, at an unspecified location, if an unspecified promoter was willing to come up with the money and both parties could agree upon that promoter. This allowed Dempsey to simply refuse any offers of the fight and walk away. It was specifically designed, as Dempsey himself admitted in his autobiography, to get the NYSAC off his back so he wouldnt have to defend against Wills. Wills was in the horrible position of having to sit through this charade every time Dempsey trotted it out (and he did it more than once) because if Wills were to say "Im not going through with these theatrics" Dempsey could have said "see he doesnt really want to fight me."

Ridiculous. Wills did not step aside. Period. Tunney's own publicity man admitted under oath during a trial held a few years later that Tunney's challenge of Wills was never serious. They never had any intention of fighting Wills. It was merely to get Tunney's name in the newspapers associated on the same standing as Wills and Dempsey so he would be considered a possible challenger. Gibbons talked tough about Wills on occasion but this is a guy who ducked Kid Norfolk for nearly a decade until Norfolk was blind and we saw what Wills did to Norfolk. Its easy to TALK tough when you know you arent going to fight Wills. As for Wills "stepping" aside. He did no such thing. He had a certified check on file at the NYSAC offices which sealed his status as the first in line for a crack at Dempsey. He had been through numerous elimination bouts: Fulton, Norfolk, Firpo, Weinert, winning every single one decisively. His stance was that with official recognition as the top contender and having proven it time and time again, why should he be forced to continually fight elimination bouts that were essentially only designed to eliminate him. And frankly its a fair point because he had now passed through two different eras and finally in the Sharkey bout, another eliminator, he was beaten by a younger man who started boxing when Wills was already five years into his long wait for a shot at Dempsey. So yes, we do know the circumstances. Wills refusal to step aside is why Dempsey-Tunney 1 was held in Philadelphia. Rickard wanted to promote the fight in New York but the NYSAC sided with Wills. They refused to sanction a Dempsey-Tunney bout which forced Rickard to scramble and find a new venue.

Or you could just try reading.

Everybody somehow managed to get through that net. Nobody Dempsey defended his title against fought Wills in order to get their title shot. Why? Because none of them would have beaten him and they knew it. Not Miske, not Carpentier, not Brennan, not Gibbons, and not Firpo as shown by how easily Wills dominated him when they met a year after Dempsey fought Firpo and when Wills was already slipping. And as mentioned, even Tunney had no serious designs on Wills and before he ever won the title, when Wills blocked their fight from taking place in New York, Tunney used this as the impetus to draw the color line and refuse, before ever winning the title, to defend against Wills in the event he beat Dempsey.

Nobody is denying that Greb wasnt the top contender. He wasnt. Wills was. But Greb was better and more accomplished than any white man Dempsey defended against so you cant sit there and claim that this is strictly a racial issue. Dempsey defended against a dying Miske, knowingly. He defended against Carpentier who had lost to even the best middleweights he had fought, usually badly. He defended against Gibbons whose only qualification was specifically that he had lost his elimination bout TO GREB, he was the safer opponent. He defended against Firpo who had zero skills and even himself admitted PRIOR TO FIGHTING DEMPSEY that he was not ready and wished he had another year and even stated that Wills should have gotten the opportunity before him. He defended against Brennan who Greb defeated easily four times and who Dempsey had already knocked out. These were safe opponents designed to keep the ball rolling and the money rolling in. Even Tunney, the best of the lot and the guy who actually beat Dempsey was chosen by Dempsey at Rickards urging because it was felt he was a safer opponent than Wills. Thats all a matter of record.

 

THIS CONSTANT VERBAL OVERWRITTEN BABBLE BY NINCOMPOOPTON IS THE REASON PROZAC WAS INVENTED.

 

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I think be beat Ezzard Charles H2H. They are on the same size.

 

No need to show arrogance. I never made that case for Greb not being in contention, I said he wasn't a cert and I used those boxers as an example of the amount of boxers gunning for a shot at Dempsey, including Greb, the 19 you kindly counted for me.
You have one major problem with your record of Greb beating 9 of that list, when he only officially beat 5 of them from what I can see. Your coming at it from a modern perspective as newspaper decisions were chalked down as ND's and didn't officiate to any of the rankings, in a nutshell they didn't have boxrec back then to compile NWS decisions into a modern format to replicate judges. Newspaper decisions were mainly for betting and readers, two people who read two different papers could have two completely different perspectives of the same fight. You also left out that Greb lost to 3 of them officially. Now I don't want to start bashing Greb, he was one of the greatest boxers and without a doubt managers, boxers and promoters were well aware how good he was.
Greb never fought Frank Moran, unless it was in some bar room brawl with Greb on his ginger ale when he knocked Moran out.
You can't allude to Firpo being one of the boxers in contention for Dempsey and then later say he didn't want anything to do with the Dempsey fight, which is it? It's the latter. Firpo didn't want to fight Dempsey but his team needed a war to get his popularity back up.

Agree with most but for historical accuracy, you can't take newspapers decisions on for one arguement and then dismiss the same journalists on another arguement, the poll or polls showed people's opinion, which is very important for us from a historical stand point but also at the time it showed Dempsey's team that the public wanted the Wills fight. This led to the contract signing between Wills and Dempsey. They couldn't use the excuse anymore that the public wouldn't except a black champion and it put pressure on Dempsey. It also gave Dempsey justification to put Gibbons into a title fight over everybody else except Wills of course, but including Greb. Greb may have won an eliminator vs Gibbons but the eliminators were two a penny and promoters, boxers and managers just like polls didn't abide by them but knew well they existed.

Not sure where you are going with this but agreed. Fulton also claimed to be number 1 contender from a seperate agreement. The Billy Miske part is pure sensationalism, Dempsey was close friends with Miske, he knew he was sick but didn't know how bad and as @The Morlocks already pointed out Miske had a great run after the Dempsey fight.

This is just pure speculation there was a contract signed. Agreed it was a horrible situation for Wills, he was deserving of his title shot. How fitting for the NYSAC to be on Dempsey's back and then they won't even allow the fight to go ahead, Wills was catching no breaks.