Is Jack Dempsey the most overrated fighter of all time

billy smith · Jul 21, 2015

e Sam Langford(Dempsey ducked him in 1917), Joe Jeanette(Dempsey ran out of the ring against him in 1918) and Sam McVea.

Langford, McVea, Jeanette alone are better than Dempsey's best victims.

Are you talking about when the 21 Year old Dempsey went to New York wasnt that 1916 when he refused to fight Langford? With Jeanette i thought Dempsey never showed up not ran out of the ring..
Just like when you defended Wills for not fighting Tunney as why should he..
Why should Dempsey fight them when fighting them wasn't necessary for a title shot..With Wills ,,fighting Tunney was necessary for a title shot.
.If fighting Jeanette and McVey was necessary for Kearns to be champ Dempsey would have fought them

SuzieQ49 · Jul 21, 2015

billy smith said: ↑

e Sam Langford(Dempsey ducked him in 1917), Joe Jeanette(Dempsey ran out of the ring against him in 1918) and Sam McVea.

Langford, McVea, Jeanette alone are better than Dempsey's best victims.

Are you talking about when the 21 Year old Dempsey went to New York wasnt that 1916 when he refused to fight Langford? With Jeanette i thought Dempsey never showed up not ran out of the ring..
Just like when you defended Wills for not fighting Tunney as why should he..
Why should Dempsey fight them when fighting them wasn't necessary for a title shot..With Wills ,,fighting Tunney was necessary for a title shot.
.If fighting Jeanette and McVey was necessary for Kearns to be champ Dempsey would have fought them
Click to expand...

Joe Jeanette got in the ring with Dempsey in 1918. Dempsey refused to engange with Jeanette and walked out of the ring while the crowd Booed.According to a newspaper article, he "gave boxing a black eye" when he did that. It's really shocking that the white men did not stand up for their guy, but booed him, even in the report afterwards.

John Sullivan: "If a white guy is drawing the colour line he's scared of a black guy."

SuzieQ49 · Jul 21, 2015

Some more quotes from the article:

'Jack Dempsey, conqueror of Fulton, took refuge behind the "color" line.'

'Dempsey, who today stands at the pinnacle as a result of victories over all-white heavyweights'

'For weeks, Jeannette has sought a match with the Utah wonder, but for some reason best known to himself and his manager Kearns, Dempsey has persistently refused to meet a negro, despite the fact that he has fought John Lester Johnson in this city a couple of years ago'

'When he agreed to box at the Garden Show, Dempsey stipulated that he be matched with a white boxer and at that time refused to meet Jeannette or any other negro.'

'That had started out as one of the greatest fistic carnivals ever staged in this city, had been marred by one of the worst examples of sportsmanship - or lack of it - ever witnessed in the annals of local boxing. '

'There is no alibi for anybody involved in this disgraceful episode. In the first place, Dempsey should have accepted the negro's challenge if he had an ounce of sporting blood in his make up. To be sure, he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, but last night was no occasion to seek refuge behind the color line. There is no excuse whatsoever for Dempsey.'

billy smith · Jul 21, 2015

So they switched Dempseys opponent at the last minute?

janitor · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Wills went 4-1-1 with 2 knockouts against Big Bill Tate. His only loss came on a DQ when he hit Tate while he was on the floor from a knockdown in the first round.
Click to expand...

The bottom line is that he lost one against Tate, and then couldn't avenge it in the rematch.

Hardly the mark of a dominant contender.

Wills was 36 years old when he fought Sharkey. Dempsey had been retired for 4 years when he was 36. Dempsey beat Sharkey, after losing almost every round and having revert to going low.
Click to expand...

The bottom line, is that Dempsey beat the guy who beat Wills, while himself well past his prime.

More like he built his standing by beating hall of fame top rated contenders whom willard and dempsey wouldn't fight like Sam Langford(Dempsey ducked him in 1917), Joe Jeanette(Dempsey ran out of the ring against him in 1918) and Sam McVea.

Langford, McVea, Jeanette alone are better than Dempsey's best victims.
Click to expand...

Not at any point close to Dempsey's prime.

Except when those 2 contenders are so much better than everyone else. No one was a close 3rd.
Click to expand...

They obviously weren't, because they were getting beaten.
Click to expand...

janitor · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Some more quotes from the article:

'Jack Dempsey, conqueror of Fulton, took refuge behind the "color" line.'

'Dempsey, who today stands at the pinnacle as a result of victories over all-white heavyweights'

'For weeks, Jeannette has sought a match with the Utah wonder, but for some reason best known to himself and his manager Kearns, Dempsey has persistently refused to meet a negro, despite the fact that he has fought John Lester Johnson in this city a couple of years ago'

'When he agreed to box at the Garden Show, Dempsey stipulated that he be matched with a white boxer and at that time refused to meet Jeannette or any other negro.'

'That had started out as one of the greatest fistic carnivals ever staged in this city, had been marred by one of the worst examples of sportsmanship - or lack of it - ever witnessed in the annals of local boxing. '

'There is no alibi for anybody involved in this disgraceful episode. In the first place, Dempsey should have accepted the negro's challenge if he had an ounce of sporting blood in his make up. To be sure, he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, but last night was no occasion to seek refuge behind the color line. There is no excuse whatsoever for Dempsey.'
Click to expand...

How many fighters would you expect to go ahead with a fight, if the opponent was switched at the last minute, without any notification?

Come to think of it, can you name any occasion when a fighter above the level of journeyman, has agreed to such terms?

mcvey · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

"Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."- Larry Gains

EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson

Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."

Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.

One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:

All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.

As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills,
This content is protected
Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said :
This content is protected
, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight." - ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "The dean of the Black Press.
Click to expand...

Larry Gains told me Dempsey was the greatest fighter he ever saw.

mcvey · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Some more quotes from the article:

'Jack Dempsey, conqueror of Fulton, took refuge behind the "color" line.'

'Dempsey, who today stands at the pinnacle as a result of victories over all-white heavyweights'

'For weeks, Jeannette has sought a match with the Utah wonder, but for some reason best known to himself and his manager Kearns, Dempsey has persistently refused to meet a negro, despite the fact that he has fought John Lester Johnson in this city a couple of years ago'

'When he agreed to box at the Garden Show, Dempsey stipulated that he be matched with a white boxer and at that time refused to meet Jeannette or any other negro.'

'That had started out as one of the greatest fistic carnivals ever staged in this city, had been marred by one of the worst examples of sportsmanship - or lack of it - ever witnessed in the annals of local boxing. '

'There is no alibi for anybody involved in this disgraceful episode. In the first place, Dempsey should have accepted the negro's challenge if he had an ounce of sporting blood in his make up. To be sure, he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, but last night was no occasion to seek refuge behind the color line. There is no excuse whatsoever for Dempsey.'
Click to expand...

Suze, you're an excellent poster but on the subject of Jack Dempsey you are beginning to sound as rabid as Mendoza on Jack Johnson.atsch

billy smith · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Some more quotes from the article:

'Jack Dempsey, conqueror of Fulton, took refuge behind the "color" line.'

'Dempsey, who today stands at the pinnacle as a result of victories over all-white heavyweights'

'For weeks, Jeannette has sought a match with the Utah wonder, but for some reason best known to himself and his manager Kearns, Dempsey has persistently refused to meet a negro, despite the fact that he has fought John Lester Johnson in this city a couple of years ago'

'When he agreed to box at the Garden Show, Dempsey stipulated that he be matched with a white boxer and at that time refused to meet Jeannette or any other negro.'

'That had started out as one of the greatest fistic carnivals ever staged in this city, had been marred by one of the worst examples of sportsmanship - or lack of it - ever witnessed in the annals of local boxing. '

'There is no alibi for anybody involved in this disgraceful episode. In the first place, Dempsey should have accepted the negro's challenge if he had an ounce of sporting blood in his make up. To be sure, he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, but last night was no occasion to seek refuge behind the color line. There is no excuse whatsoever for Dempsey.'
Click to expand...

So then Dempsey was to fight someone else.. Because if he refused weeks ago then the only reason to show up is if he's scheduled to face another fighter..
Then they pull a fast one, well they acted in bad faith
They didn't honor the terms of his contract from their end .Right?

janitor · Jul 21, 2015

mcvey said: ↑

Suze, you're an excellent poster but on the subject of Jack Dempsey you are beginning to sound as rabid as Mendoza on Jack Johnson.atsch
Click to expand...

And as objective, unfortunately.

SuzieQ49 · Jul 21, 2015

janitor said: ↑

The bottom line is that he lost one against Tate, and then couldn't avenge it in the rematch.

Hardly the mark of a dominant contender.

The bottom line, is that Dempsey beat the guy who beat Wills, while himself well past his prime.

Not at any point close to Dempsey's prime.

They obviously weren't, because they were getting beaten.
Click to expand...

He scored 2 EARLY knockout victories and two wide decisions over Tate. That s DOMINATING. FOUR victories! You count Tate as having a victory over Wills, despite Wills flooring Tate with a series of punches then hitting him while on the floor for a DQ win. That's probably the most unimpressive victory over another fighter I have ever read about

The bottom line, is that Dempsey beat the guy who beat Wills, while himself well past his prime.
Click to expand...

Dempsey's best win, by far. And he managed it after getting his ass kicked, and hitting low.

The bottom line, though, is that Wills was number 1 contender for 7 straight years, and never got a title shot against Dempsey. Dempsey needed Sharkey to expose a tired 36 year old Wills to get him out of the picture.

Not at any point close to Dempsey's prime.
Click to expand...

But Dempsey did lose in his prime twice to 5'9 roly poly willie meehan correct? Then feast on bottom feeders while avoiding Wills and Greb?

They obviously weren't, because they were getting beaten
Click to expand...

Actually, they WERE the best.

Wills was Dempsey's number 1 contender for 7 straight years. What most historians consider Dempsey's best win(Fulton), Wills destroyed Fulton in 3 rounds crushing his rib cage in the process. Firpo got floored twice and lost every round to a 35 year old Wills. Langford(whom Dempsey turned down a fight) lost to Wills several times. Hall of fame heavyweights McVea and Jeanette also defeated by Wills many times. Dangerous Contender Kid Norfolk was blasted away by Wills in 2 rounds. After reviewing there records, some could argue Wills had a better one than Dempsey.

Harry Greb was clearly better than anyone Dempsey fought for the title. Greb went 5-0 against Brennan, Beat Tommy Gibbons 10 rounds to 0 in a TITLE ELIMINATOR, and defeated Billy Miske 3 times. He was so good that Georges Carpentier refused to get in the ring with him. That is 4 vastly inferior fighters who got title shots over Harry Greb.

Oh, and Harry Greb also went 3-2-1 against Gene Tunney, whom Dempsey went 0-2 against.
Click to expand...

mcvey · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

He scored 2 EARLY knockout victories and two wide decisions over Tate. That s DOMINATING. FOUR victories! You count Tate as having a victory over Wills, despite Wills flooring Tate with a series of punches then hitting him while on the floor for a DQ win. That's probably the most unimpressive victory over another fighter I have ever read about

Dempsey's best win, by far. And he managed it after getting his ass kicked, and hitting low.

The bottom line, though, is that Wills was number 1 contender for 7 straight years, and never got a title shot against Dempsey. Dempsey needed Sharkey to expose a tired 36 year old Wills to get him out of the picture.

But Dempsey did lose in his prime twice to 5'9 roly poly willie meehan correct? Then feast on bottom feeders while avoiding Wills and Greb?

Actually, they WERE the best.

Wills was Dempsey's number 1 contender for 7 straight years. What most historians consider Dempsey's best win(Fulton), Wills destroyed Fulton in 3 rounds crushing his rib cage in the process. Firpo got floored twice and lost every round to a 35 year old Wills. Langford(whom Dempsey turned down a fight) lost to Wills several times. Hall of fame heavyweights McVea and Jeanette also defeated by Wills many times. Dangerous Contender Kid Norfolk was blasted away by Wills in 2 rounds. After reviewing there records, some could argue Wills had a better one than Dempsey.

Harry Greb was clearly better than anyone Dempsey fought for the title. Greb went 5-0 against Brennan, Beat Tommy Gibbons 10 rounds to 0 in a TITLE ELIMINATOR, and defeated Billy Miske 3 times. He was so good that Georges Carpentier refused to get in the ring with him. That is 4 vastly inferior fighters who got title shots over Harry Greb.

Oh, and Harry Greb also went 3-2-1 against Gene Tunney, whom Dempsey went 0-2 against.
Click to expand...

Gibbons also beat Greb twice.

Gibbons leapt into a match with Pittsburgh's Harry Greb, a wild-swinging middleweight brawler who would later be recognized by The Ring magazine as the single greatest middleweight in history. According to reporters, only Greb's fabled toughness saved him from a knockout. The fight went the distance and was officially a no-decision, but no one doubted who the winner was. Gibbons spent the next several months traveling and fighting less than stellar opponents in Canada, Missouri, Milwaukee, New York, and Scranton before taking on Battling Levinsky, who was the reigning light heavyweight champion of the world at the time, though, because Gibbons was only a middleweight, the title would not be on the line. Though Gibbons was by now undefeated in twenty-four pro fights, Levinsky was a veteran of an amazing 181 fights. Again the fight ended in a no-decision, but reporters gave their verdict to Gibbons.

Gibbons continued his undefeated streak for the next three years--fighting a variety of competition and fighting in places such as Dayton, Pittsburgh, Scranton, Baltimore, Akron, Terre Haute, Des Moines, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis, Calgary, Seattle, Peoria, and Edmonton. On May 15, 1920 he fought a second no-decision against Greb. Even Greb's hometown paper reported that Gibbons handed him "the licking of his life."
Click to expand...

Perry · Jul 21, 2015

Billy. Yes they changed opponents at the last minute and of course Dempsey refused to fight. As would any professional fighter.

All of this is well known but none of it changes the fact that Dempsey was considered the greatest hwt ever for many decades. Langford, Tunney, Leonard, Arcel, Bimstein, Hayes, Stillman...many others. That's the truth that no one can change.

janitor · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

He scored 2 EARLY knockout victories and two wide decisions over Tate. That s DOMINATING. FOUR victories! You count Tate as having a victory over Wills, despite Wills flooring Tate with a series of punches then hitting him while on the floor for a DQ win. That's probably the most unimpressive victory over another fighter I have ever read about
Click to expand...

Lets say that Alexander Povetkin fought say Tomphson and lost by DQ.

Then lets say that in the rematch, the best he could manage was a draw.

Do you think that in that scenario, he would still be ranked or regarded, as the #1 contender?

That is the reality of what happened.

Dempsey's best win, by far. And he managed it after getting his ass kicked, and hitting low.
Click to expand...

Significant doubt has been cast on the assertion that he hit low recently, but you will ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

The bottom line, though, is that Wills was number 1 contender for 7 straight years, and never got a title shot against Dempsey. Dempsey needed Sharkey to expose a tired 36 year old Wills to get him out of the picture.
Click to expand...

And then he beat Sharkey, thus defeating Wills conqueror.

You can't totally overlook this.

But Dempsey did lose in his prime twice to 5'9 roly poly willie meehan correct? Then feast on bottom feeders while avoiding Wills and Greb?
Click to expand...

This has got what to do with Langford and McVea's status as contenders?

Actually, they WERE the best.
Wills was Dempsey's number 1 contender for 7 straight years.
Click to expand...

No he wasn't.

He arguably didn't become the # 1 contender until he beat Fulton, and he clearly wasn't after his series with Tate.

What most historians consider Dempsey's best win(Fulton), Wills destroyed Fulton in 3 rounds crushing his rib cage in the process.
Click to expand...

After Dempsey had given him the blueprint for doing it.

Firpo got floored twice and lost every round to a 35 year old Wills.
Click to expand...

OK, so Fulton and Firpo are Wills best wins over the period.

If they are not good wins for Dempsey, then they certainly aren't good wins for Wills, after Dempsey beat them.

You can't have it both ways.

Langford(whom Dempsey turned down a fight) lost to Wills several times. Hall of fame heavyweights McVea and Jeanette also defeated by Wills many times. Dangerous Contender Kid Norfolk was blasted away by Wills in 2 rounds. After reviewing there records, some could argue Wills had a better one than Dempsey.
Click to expand...

Not over this period, and certainly not based on any of these fighters over this period.

Harry Greb was clearly better than anyone Dempsey fought for the title. Greb went 5-0 against Brennan, Beat Tommy Gibbons 10 rounds to 0 in a TITLE ELIMINATOR, and defeated Billy Miske 3 times. He was so good that Georges Carpentier refused to get in the ring with him. That is 4 vastly inferior fighters who got title shots over Harry Greb.
Click to expand...

I notice you quote the results of the series for all of the above fighters, except for Gibbons who was even in the series.

Is this a coincidence?

Oh, and Harry Greb also went 3-2-1 against Gene Tunney, whom Dempsey went 0-2 against.
Click to expand...

True, but by the time Dempsey fought Tunney, he was clearly a more dangerous assignment than Greb.

why didn't he duck Tunney as well, was he not wicked or cowardly enough?
Click to expand...

mcvey · Jul 21, 2015

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Wills went 4-1-1 with 2 knockouts against Big Bill Tate. His only loss came on a DQ when he hit Tate while he was on the floor from a knockdown in the first round.

Wills was 36 years old when he fought Sharkey. Dempsey had been retired for 4 years when he was 36. Dempsey beat Sharkey, after losing almost every round and having revert to going low.

More like he built his standing by beating hall of fame top rated contenders whom willard and dempsey wouldn't fight like Sam Langford(Dempsey ducked him in 1917), Joe Jeanette(Dempsey ran out of the ring against him in 1918) and Sam McVea.

Langford, McVea, Jeanette alone are better than Dempsey's best victims.

Except when those 2 contenders are so much better than everyone else. No one was a close 3rd.
Click to expand...

Wasn't that night a charity free night with Dempsey not getting paid?

A young green Dempsey refused to fight Langford in1917.Fulton fought him and stopped him in 7 rds In 1918 Dempsey kod Fulton in 23 seconds .Five months later Fulton beat Langford again.:think

Log in or Sign up

Is Jack Dempsey the most overrated fighter of all time

billy smith Member Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

billy smith Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

billy smith Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Is Jack Dempsey the most overrated fighter of all time

billy smith Member Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

billy smith Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

billy smith Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member

Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

mcvey VIP Member Full Member