Is James Toney an ATG?

But I haven't faulted Toney for that. You and London are taking turns replying to replies with the context of the quoted text being disregarded. None of my posts in this thread are stand alone responses that summarize my entire argument but you continue to frame your responses as if that is the case.

I've been very patient with you two despite the name calling and frustrating nature of your responses.

The question was posed earlier in this thread "Why is Toney only considered a lower tier All Time Great or Borderline Hall of Famer despite his accomplishments in multiple weight classes." This was followed with false claims he beat the #1 in every division from Middle to Heavy.

I have answered that by stating had Toney actually beat the top guy in every weight class, he would be more of a lock, but as is, many of his weight jump achievements were opportunistic. They were all timely and against perceived low risk opponents.

Barkley for instance was a low risk/high reward fight that Toney bypassed a mandatory challenger for. We understand the reasons but in terms of legacy, this is why a Champion who stayed put and defended his belts against all comers like Hagler tends to be rated ahead as a legacy. Had Hagler skipped Mugabi because he was "unproven", jumped up in weight, picked on some low hanging fruit, and started picking up losses...it's nothing personal against Toney.

I understand the school of thought, that moving up in weight can be seen as a greater test, but in many cases, a dominating fighter at a single weight class might be rated higher. Especially if they were erratic and selective as Toney was above 160. Toney didn't really beat the top guy in every weight class did he?

Okay, so right there. This isn't me writing off Toney as garbage. This has been called nit-picking...maybe it is, but if we are talking why Toney is often not considered cream of the pound for pound elite, nit-picking is gonna happen.

I really have nothing more to say on the matter. I feel I been making the same post for 5 pages. I'm out on this one.

 

I know exactly what you’ve done.

I’ve been debating you for 3 days.

Griffin and Little weren’t even title grabs anyway.

Nobody even considers them as being titles.

 

I never made that claim about Barkley.

It doesn’t matter who’d been a pro for longer. They were both unproven.

Why do you keep noting that Hopkins was a mandatory, as though it made it extremely important and relevant?

Glen Kelly and Ricky Frazier were both made the mandatory challenger to Roy Jones when he was at LHW.

Skipping an unproven Hopkins to fight for a new belt in a new division, against a proven fighter, doesn’t deserve an ounce of criticism. We didn’t know how great Hopkins was back then and what he would go on to achieve.

There was also nothing wrong with the Griffin fight. He’d won titles in 2 weight classes, having beaten guys like Nunn, Reggie, McCallum, Thornton, Littles, Barkley and Williams. He then fought Roy and took an embarrassing loss. So he tried to regroup at LHW. Who did you want him to fight at that point?

The fact that you have criticised him for skipping Hopkins and for fighting Griffin, tells us all about you.

Your only justification is that Hopkins had been a pro for longer.

It’s all nonsense.

You cannot criticise someone for fighting an unproven Griffin, when you have already criticised the same person for not having fought an unproven Hopkins.

 

But I haven't criticized him for skipping Hopkins and facing Griffin. I don't even find the situations comparable. I did however say that Barkley and Griffin were both opportunistic moves and they certainly were, you've admitted as much without saying it.

For whatever reason, my point isn't coming across to you, but I accept your criticism as I have only myself to blame for being misunderstood.

I understand why you feel I've unfairly attacked Toney, and my attempts at explaining have only added to the confusion. I hoped my previous post in response to London above would add clarity, but it apparently did not. Oh well.

My attempts at defending fragments of my argument has all became very far removed from the original intent of addressing why I feel Toney rightfully gets ranked below more dominant single division Champions.

But one final time I stress, pointing out that Toney's achievements and challenges above 160 are being overstated is not the same as dumping on them completely or suggesting he made illogical choices.

 

Okay mate.

No worries.