Is James Toney an ATG?

I seem to remember Waldo getting two W's and James getting two L's.

I remember Waldo punishing Sam, having him out on his feet from a sweet tight hook in the first fight and just obliterating him in the second.

Maybe you're right and Wlad lost both and James won both of his. I'll check boxrec later.

 

I would say that only having the odd blip in 45 fights was a sign of consistency. Especially as he was fighting so often.

He fought Nunn, McCallum and Reggie in a 9 month period.

He beat almost all of his first 46 opponents before he fought Roy Jones. How was that not showing overall dominance?

The Tiberi fight gets blown way out of proportion. Sure, he deserved to lose. But check out his schedule. He’d just fought Mike McCallum to a draw less than 2 months earlier. He’d fought 3 elite fighters and a tune up in under a year. If he wasn’t as dominant and as consistent, there’d have been more Tiberi type performances on his resume.

Regarding Roy Jones, Roy was untouchable for a decade. There was no shame in losing to Roy. And he did want to fight Roy again. It probably would have happened had he not lost to Griffin at LHW. And many people think that he won those fights.

He didn’t draw with Reggie Johnson. He beat him.

He also had an excellent win over Tim Littles at SMW, before he fought Roy.

If Roy and Hopkins are ATG’s, then Toney has to be too.

 

Don't strawman me son!
Who performed better against Peters? the answer is Toney who was literally half Wlads size.

Chisora performed better against Parker than Whyte but check your boxrec and it will show Whyte beat Parker while Chisora lost to him.

Toney didn't get his deserved win because it would have been a terrible look for the division. Most knew he won the fight. He took Peter to slick school while your guy was running all over the ring in complete panic mode.

 

No. You got it backwards. Roy Jones moved up to face Toney. Toney moved up to face the 7 loss Barkley who won a trinket from David Van Horn just when MW was getting crowded.

Toney didn't move up to face Jirov. Toney moved to cruiser to fight Steve Little for a trinket in 97. Jirov was not even the IBF Champ then, on fact he had just turned pro that January. Toney had been a campaigning cruiser, and won a world title 6 years before facing Jirov....lol

Seriously, I followed Toney his whole career. He did not move up to face Jones. Jones moved up to face him.

He did not move up to face Jirov. He won a cruiser World Title before Jirov.

He took the easiest routes to titles, which isn't crime, it just isn't extraordinary either. He deserves credit for beating Jirov, it was a meeting between two top cruisers, but claiming "Toney moved up and faced a top guy" isn't exactly the most accurate framing for reasons stated above.

I think Toney was a solid HW too, but a man who was a veteran cruiser having limited success at HW just isn't all that exceptional. Toney has undeniable skills and great wins and performances, he was still an opportunist with a suspect pedigree for an alleged P4P all time great.

 

Oh mine...

it is a 5ft10 middleweight having success at heavweight.and yes that is exceptional.

you think he took the easy route when he faced the likes of Nunn, Mc Callum, Jirov, Barkley or Holyfield.do you even realise he was the underdog in those fights???

 

he sure outboxed Peter in their first fight. yes I can see your point that Toney did not do worse than Wlad in their first fight with Peter

 

What?! Is this for real??? F sake. Of course the man is ATG and HOF.

 

Nunn and McCallum were at Middleweight. Your responding to the last post of a chain that was specifically discussing Toney's career outside of MW.

Toney didn't hop from MW to HW, so that's not an accurate framing. Like I said he spent 6 years at Cruiser. All in all, Toney was only a MW for the first 4 years of a very long career while in his early 20s, so I feel it's a bit hyperbolic and silly to credit everything he does as the amazing work of a former MW.

I was 160 lbs as a young man too, when I bench at the gym as a 238 lb adult in my 40s I don't walk around and say " I was 160 when I was 21, this lift is even better than you think.". Stop and think how stupid that sounds.

I gave him credit for Jirov in the post you are quoting. That's concerning to me, as it's clear you knee jerk responded without really reading what I wrote...uh why do that?

No I don't realize because Barkley was a 13-5 odd underdog despite Toney moving up to challenge him.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/02/...hing-iran-barkley-a-thing-or-two-about-boxing


Holyfield was a slight favorite but only because Toney's conditioning was being questioned publicly by Roach. If you know your odds 7-5 means this was pretty even. The result was shocking in no one could admit Evander was 41 and coming off shoulder surgery. You consider that a great challenge for a 6 year cruiser? And if we are calling Toney a former MW to make everything he did sound greater...is Holyfield a former LH?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-oct-04-sp-vegasunderadv4-story.html


Like I said..I followed Toney's whole career as it happened. You aren't gonna surprise me with anything. In fact.. I'm surprising you guys as you and the other Toney apologist both got critical facts wrong while overrating the guy.

 

nitpicking... you can't refute any of the facts I provided. And anybody's resume can be downplayed of course.

 

Calling Toney a "MW having success at HW" when he weighed well over 200 lbs while competing at HW is factually inaccurate.

You stated Toney was an underdog against Barkley. This was not a factually accurate statement as I've shown.

The only fact you got right was he was an underdog against Evander....just barely because his coach was calling him fat. So congratulations, you proved Toney was a slight underdog against 41 year old shoulder surgery rehab Evander.

I'm sorry you feel my criticisms are biased, I try to be consistent. I like Toney, but I have a realistic idea of his achievements. I think it's clear I'm not just hating to be hating and can explain my logic.

I hate to do this, but if your next post can't show me you can admit to being wrong on facts or actually show me your reading my posts...I'm gonna pull the plug on you. I'm not here to waste time.

 

Only MW in history we have seen (Correct me If I am wrong) that beat modern HWs? not of the John Ruiz cloth but the big strong types like Peters or a Rahman.

 

fair point about Barkley.I misremember that one

 

You have interpreted my text in the wrong way.

I know exactly who he fought and when.

I never meant that he moved up to fight Roy at SMW and Jirov at CW.

I was saying that he moved up to those divisions, where he fought those guys.

It makes no difference does it.

The point is: He didn't need to take those fights.

Your post implies that he took the easy route, by seeking out the right opportunity for him. Yet the truth is, they were big challenges which he didn't have to take.

After beating McCallum, Nunn and Reggie at MW, he then fought Barkley who was coming off his 2nd win over Hearns, before taking apart Tim Littles in just 3 rounds, before then knocking out Prince Charles Williams. He then fought Roy, who'd just blasted Tate away in 2 rounds, which was just after he'd beaten Hopkins and knocked out Malinga in 6 rounds. And despite what most people think, there were only a handful of elite level fighters who were willing to fight Roy back in the 90's.

Yes, he'd obviously been at CW before he fought Jirov. But he could have just feasted on low level CW's, instead of facing Jirov and then moving up to fight top 10-15 HW's.

He deserves more credit than what you have given him.

He wasn't just a weight jumping opportunist.

He took very tough fights.

It's okay saying that a veteran CW having limited success at HW isn't exceptional. But he had no business being at CW. He was a 5'10 former MW. If he'd have been disciplined, he'd have fought most of his career as a MW-SMW. Sure, he loses points for his unprofessionalism. But it's still very impressive for an out of shape former MW to hang with those guys and have success. You need to ask yourself how many former MW's in their 30's would be able to fight guys like Jirov and Peter etc. There won't be a long list.

 

I have not misinterpreted your text.

"How many former MW's could beat the number 1 HW?"

"He wasn’t just an opportunist when he moved up and fought prime versions of Roy Jones and Vassily Jirov."

These are your comments. They are both very misleading given Toney never beat the #1 HW, and Roy moved up to face Toney.

Your additional clarification to fit the facts does matter, since my claim was about Toney's weight jumping title grabs, not the few times he took on an opponent of standing after establishing himself in a new division...in the case of Jirov...6 years after the move!

Toney was regarded higher than Jones at the time, rated higher pound for pound, and Jones was moving up to face him. He was a slight favorite and got completely outclassed. I'm not sure what twisted logic sees this as making a case for Toney. So we are giving guys credit just for fighting Jones and getting their can kicked? I'll pass on that. Vinny Paz says thanks though.

Jirov will go down as his greatest win post 160. But it was a meeting between two top cruisers who had established themselves for over a half decade in the division. Again, Toney was a prodigy who turned pro at a young age. He was in his early 20s at MW. I'm not gonna give him extra credit for that.

Was he an opportunist? I don't believe size is everything and taking a fight at a new division doesn't automatically make it a greater challenge.

A declined Barkley coming down at SMW was an easier fight for a World Title than the guys coming up at Middle. Toney had no way of knowing Roy was going to move up and face him then.

Griffin was 14-0 and had not faced a real test when Toney agreed to move up and face him. Super Middle also looked bleak after losing his title to Jones.

Toney's next real move was to Cruiser to face the unremarkable Steve Little for a World Title. LHW looked bleak after the Thadzi loss and Griffin/Jones.

Toney's HW jump was against a 41 year old shoulder surgery Evander. Very calculated risk. His next title win...Ruiz.. who previously was dominated by cruiser Jones.

Again...it's fine. I just don't find what Toney did here to be some great challenge chase. He went to the divisions where he could match up well with the Champions, and had the "ability" to pack on pounds and keep his power and hand speed moving up.

By the end of his career, he was older and heavier, and had the right skillset and physical power to hang with broad but slower guys Peter and Rahman, though I didn't score either fight for him. He had a better shot at these guys then Jones or Tarver or Haye. Not that he ducked these guys....he just knew where his chances were.

 

James Toney did not take the easy route. It is really quite ridiculous to say so. It makes me think that you have some kind of issue with Toney.

Against Nunn, Mc Callum, Jirov, Holyfield, he was the betting underdog. Now I take you correction about the Barkley fight where I think the odds changed the week of the fight, but this was not seen as an easy fight at the time against a man who had beaten before Van Horn and Hearns.

You go to great length about Holyfield's age etc. Fact is Holyfield was ranked in the Top 5 by the Ring at the time and the betting favourite. It is easy to say after the fight, well Holy was shot and this and that, but how many folks said that before the fight. If you know James, had always been talking about going up gto heavyweight, and most said that he could not do it because he was too small. Taking Holy as a first fight as a heavy and considering he started out as a middle, that is not an easy fight for sure.

Toney was only a small betting favourite against Ruiz and Rahman. Those were not fights with a faregone conclusion at all. Considering Toney's size disadvantages I do not know how you can say that.

Now coming to Peter. Toney DID NOT have to take that fight. He could have just sit on his WBC mandatory and fight Maskaev which woujld have probably been an easier fight. That is why the fight was built as no risk no reward. And Toney paid for it by losing. Certianly fighting such a huge puncher at the time was seen as a risky fight.

He was also scheduled to face Mc Cline before his injury where he would have had a huge size disadvantage. You can't say Toney was risk shy.

There were not too many good heavyweights around. Byrd for some reason never wanted to fight Toney- The timing was never right to face the Klitschkos.

you gotta give a little more credit to the fact that Toney was never a true heavywieght and fought these guys in his later 30s-