Is James Toney an ATG?

The only thing you’re surprising us with, is your arrogance and your ignorance.

Your weight lifting analogy doesn’t work.

Your example of Evander possibly being labelled as a former LHW doesn’t work.

Like I’ve said, Toney deserves criticism for his lack of professionalism and discipline. There’s no question about that. But again, the point is, he should have been a career MW-SMW.

He didn’t add bulk and move up like Roy and Hopkins did.

He moved up because he was so unprofessional, where he couldn’t make weight anymore. And again, he deserves criticism for that. But it’s also a testament to his ability, that he could fight for so long up at CW and HW. He had no absolutely no business being there. But he didn’t do it for the challenge. He did it because he had no choice due to the life that he was living. So whilst it was very poor on his part, it was also very impressive. You are labelling him as a 6 year CW. And whilst that is true, what he actually was, was an out of shape MW-SMW.

Evander never fought professionally at LHW. Whereas James fought almost 50 fights weighing between MW-SMW. And he did that until he was 26-27 years old. He wasn’t a young kid. He was a fully developed adult. So again, your example of Evander doesn’t work.

James Toney was an out of shape MW-SMW, who ended his top level career fighting at HW in his mid 30’s, where he got by just on his skills.

A guy like Sam Peter was a basic guy. We know that. But he was also a big powerful HW who’d given Wladimir Klitschko a scare in their first fight. And an out of shape, 5’10 guy who’d had 47 fights between MW-SMW, had absolutely no business being in the ring with a guy like that.

Again, give me a list of all of the former MW’s who you think could have hung with top 10-15 HW’s, whilst they were completely out of top shape, and also in their mid to late 30’s.

You can label Toney as a slob and a guy who never fulfilled his potential. You can label him as being lazy. But what he did at CW-HW showed what a great fighter he was. And it is impressive. And that’s because, realistically, most elite level guys who were in their prime between MW-SMW, would get destroyed by most top 10 HW’s.

 

What difference does it make if he weighed well over 200 pounds?

The point is, most of that was body fat.

If you possess the knowledge that you think you do, you should know that he should always have been a career MW-SMW.

 

I think you'll find I never said Toney took the easy route his whole career and NEVER took any risks. I called his weight jumping opportunist. I've explained my reasoning, think what you will.


Toney vs Peter was a WBC eliminator. Toney was not a WBC Mando that took on Peter for kicks.

Toney and his people chose to chase the WBC title, Byrd ducked nobody.

I have nothing more to say on Evander vs Toney. It's not the mountain you want it to be.

 

You have misinterpreted my post.

I’ve already told you that.

Fair enough, the way I worded it, I can see exactly why you read it how you did. But there’s absolutely no point in arguing with me after I’ve already explained myself.

You can keep your sarcastic comments regarding Vinnie Paz etc. Again, James beat Barkley, Littles and Williams, and Roy had looked very impressive against Malinga and Tate. And Paz had nothing to lose did he? James was the one who was undefeated where he had his reputation and his IBF belt on the line. If he’d have wanted to, he could have taken on lesser opponents. So yes, even though he was soundly beaten, he does deserve credit. Yes, of course he didn’t know that Roy was going to move up and face him. But the point is, he didn’t have to take that fight. Opportunists don’t fight guys like Roy Jones.

Regarding Griffin, yes, he was relatively unknown in their first fight. And it was an extremely close fight. But he went back and rematched him a few years later. And he didn’t have to do that.

Regarding your final paragraph regarding Peter and Rahman, I agree. But like I keep saying, he had no business fighting those guys, at his size, at his age and in his condition. So it has to be impressive.

 

Lots of heavyweights are fat. Being fat doesn't make you smaller, I think the facts show this to be the opposite. Toney also had chemical help in bulking up.

Toney didn't think he should have stayed at MW. I'm not gonna play his fantasy manager. For whatever reason Toney didn't want to face Hopkins...his Mando.

 

Great post.

We’re talking here about a guy who pursued Sam Peter, when he was an out of shape, 5’10 former MW who was in his late 30’s.

 

I'm not impressed with Toney defending against Jones. Jones gave up the IBF MW for a shot at the 168 IBF belt that Toney held.

Toney had two choices. Vacate or face Jones for his biggest payday. How brave of him ...I'm glad the fight happened but it wasn't some courageous act that deserves adoration nor does it mean Toney wasn't opportunist in his weight skipping....


Facing Barkley instead of Hopkins, Leaving 168 after losing to Jones to fight a 14 fight pro for a 175 title.....I've explained this enough.

 

Of course lots of HW’s are fat. But how many HW’s are 5’10 with a 72” reach?

How many HW’s fought almost 50 fights between 160-168 pounds?

Toney may have weighed-in in the same region as his HW opponents, but he was the naturally smaller guy.

I’m honestly trying to think of how many former MW’s and SMW’s could have hung with Peter and Rahman at Toney’s age.

Realistically, there can only be a handful of potential candidates.

 

Why lie? How can two of you have the same fact wrong.

Peter vs Toney was ordered as a WBC eliminator. The rematch was also ordered.

Toney wasn't pursuing Peter, he was going for Oleg's belt.

 

HGH will do that ...

 

Mis-truths listed about Toney in this thread

Beat the #1 HW
Beat the #1 SMW
Beat the #1 LHW
Was underdog against Barkley
Moved up to face Jones
Moved up to face Jirov
Pursued Peter while WBC mando
...etc...


Yeah, I'd rate him higher too if I believed all this crap. Have a weird weekend guys .. nah, make it a month.

 

Toney didn’t have to vacate, and nobody made him do anything that he didn’t want to do.

Yes, he didn’t fight Hopkins. But Hopkins was unproven at the time, just like how Griffin was at LHW. And we know from your previous posts that you don’t give him any credit for fighting Griffin back then. So then why are you bothered that he didn’t fight Hopkins back in 1993? It doesn’t make sense. There’s no logic in what you’re saying. It seems to me that you’re just nitpicking.

Yes, he gave up his IBF, MW belt and didn’t fight an unknown Hopkins, to instead fight a more proven Iran Barkley, before then fighting Tim Littles, Charles Williams and Roy Jones.

As a fan, I’d have loved to have seen him fight Hopkins at some point. But I don’t think that he deserves any criticism for not having fought him in 1993.

 

How is Toney being out of shape of great relevance? There are plenty of guys at heavyweight who are badly out of shape.

Moreover the best heavyweights he faced Ruiz, Rahman, and Peter were not very tall which would seemingly make Toneys lack of height and reach less of an issue

 

Jeez, you hang on to every word and take everything literally.

Let’s make this very simple for you:

A fat, out of shape, 5’10, former MW who was in his late 30’s and who’d had 75 fights, was HAPPY and WILLING to fight guys like Sam Peter.

I hope this satisfies you.

 

List me every former MW-SMW, who realistically could have hung with the guys who Toney did, at his age, after having 70 odd fights, after consuming any PEDS of your choice.