Is James Toney an ATG?

Understanding why Toney took easier fights because they were better opportunities does in no way contradict anything I previously stated.

 

I believe Toney deliberately moved up in weight to seek out better match ups and easier titles. I can't criticize him for being a prize fighter but I feel the praise is overblown for his so called "risks."

The narrative is certainly getting mutilated by you two, and demanding credit just for fighting at heavyweight because a PED abuser in his 30s was surprised he weighed over 200 lbs....is not something I can get behind. Poor Toney.....took steroids and ate carbs to fight at heavyweight and now has to fight at heavyweight with other fat men that take steroids. But Toney could cut to 160 at 19 years of age... So what?

 

Go and reread your previous posts like I’ve just done.

You’re just nitpicking and being argumentative.

You have criticised him for fighting Barkley over an unknown and unproven Hopkins.

You have criticised him for fighting an unproven Griffin.

You told us that he was an opportunist who took the easy route. But you’re now trying to spin it all into something positive because you’ve backed yourself into a corner.

 

Moving up to fight Barkley was seen as a bigger risk than fighting an unknown mandatory who hadn’t beaten anybody.

Okay, you don’t rate his HW exploits. That’s fine. They weren’t legendary fights or anything, and he deserves lots of criticism for being so out of shape. But it is still impressive at the same time.

You’d got a past his best late 30’s former MW who was only 5’10, fighting big powerful guys like Sam Peter, where he hung with them just on his ability.

Please answer this question with honesty, which I’ve asked you three times now:

How many other former 5’10 MW’s could have fought Peter and Rahman whilst being out of shape and in their late 30’s?

I’m not trying to trip you up or anything, I’m genuinely asking.

I can’t think of any myself.

Although Rahman and Peter weren’t Ali and Foreman, most guys in Toney’s position would have been destroyed.

Again, the guy had almost 50 fights between MW-SMW, which is where he should have remained his entire career.

 

You have contradicted yourself though.

You have previously criticised the Barkley fight.

Yet you’re now saying that he did the right thing.

Yesterday, you showed it in a negative light.

Today, you’re showing his decision to move up in a positive light.

You’ve also criticised the Griffin fight, as Griffin was unproven, yet have ignored the fact that Hopkins was too.

So: You’ve criticised him for fighting an unknown and unproven guy, but have also criticised him for NOT having fought an unknown and unproven guy.

However, I am enjoying debating with you, especially as you possess a lot of knowledge on the subject.

 

I never said he took the easy route. I just said his weight jumping was opportunistic. In fact, I'm getting tired of reminding you of that, especially as you just claimed to have read my posts. You need to see my statement for what it was, and stop stretching and mutilating it into something you can argue against. Of course Toney didn't take easy fights and easy paths his entire career.

Regarding Hopkins. He was a prime mandatory challenger. We appear to be in agreement Toney moved up to fight Barkley, a past prime but better known opponent for more money. So?

 

If you want me to highlight some of your quotes, I can do.

I know what you’ve said to me and Blade, I’ve just reread the last 4-5 pages.

You have openly criticised him for a number of things.

Regarding Hopkins, he was no better thought of than a guy like Tiberi at the time. He’d done absolutely nothing. With hindsight, we obviously know that Hopkins was a better fighter than Barkley. But we didn’t back then.

 

No. I have not.

I criticized the praise in this thread for Toney's weight jumping by pointing out his selective and timely jumps in certain divisions.

 

Do it. I never said "easy route. "

Your last paragraph is wrong. Hopkins wasn't at Jones level of threat but calling him Toberi...

 

You have.

I can show you if you really want me to.

 

On post number 64, you said that he took the easiest routes to titles.

Yet he fought Nunn for the IBF, MW belt, and Jirov for the IBF, CW belt.

Sure, some of his previous belts were against lower level guys, but then they were lower level titles.

Most fans didn’t even acknowledge the WBU, IBO and IBA.

Regarding Hopkins and Tiberi, I was referring to their standing at the time, not their abilities.

Hopkins turned pro with no real backing on a loss. He then fought low level guys until he fought Roy. To the people who weren’t familiar with him, he wasn’t regarded higher than anybody else who was of that same standing.

 

I made one "easy route" claim in regards to weight jumping title grabs. I have specified the opponents: Barkley, Griffin, Little, Holyfield/Ruiz. I'm done with repeating that.

I have never once criticized Jirov or Nunn as easy.

"He took the easiest routes to titles, which isn't crime, it just isn't extraordinary either. He deserves credit for beating Jirov, it was a meeting between two top cruisers"

I've also said this:

 

The Barkley fight wasn't seen as much of a risk at all. I already linked an article about that after you claimed in error Barkley was a favorite.

Hopkins was a 5 year Pro and mandatory IBF challenger that Toney declined. Griffin was a 2 year Pro, Toney moved to 175 to face for a vacant trinket. These situations are not the same.

 

I wouldn't lose sleep if someone labelled either a lower level ATG of one who just missed out.

 

Hopkins at the time was seen as a solid pro, nothing more. Toney had weight issues all along, nothing to do with Hopkins. I do not see how you can fault Toney for fighting Barkley instead of Hopkins.