Is Jim Jeffries criminally underrated today?

Jeffries used to move around a 300lb sand bag, and there are even pictures of him holding it on his shoulder. This was witnessed by multiple journalists in his training camp.

He shot a steer, that weighed much more than that, and picked it up in front of a group of journalists.

This stuff all happened in media view!

 

Some reports of the 1st Ruhlin fight said Ruhlin appeared the stronger man.

 

Provide the name of one journalist who witnessed these feats and wrote about it in a named newspaper. Moving around a 300lbs bag is not hoisting it unaided ,onto the back of a wagon which would be about 3foot six/4 foot minimum off the ground.
Show us a picture of Jeffries with either the steer ,or the 300lbs bag on his shoulders.

 

Jeffries was 35 years old and Johnson was moving him where he wanted from the start of the contest.
Foreman came back after 10 years inactivity, preaching in church , not from working an alfalfa farm ,was he any less stronger than before he retired? There is a story that John L Sullivan lifted a locomotive back on the track after it was derailed should we believe that? Names, photos ,that's what we believe.

 

This was all documented in the Munro training camp, and is detailed in the Pollack biography.

You might not rate Munro as an opponent, but it is by far the best documented training camp, at least pre Johnson!

 

If Jeffries had abandoned all aspects of his former training regime, while he was working on his farm, then he woudl definitely have been much weaker in the Johnson fight.

Even if we reject this argument, Johnson was himself, arguably one of the stronger heavyweight champions!

 

Jeffries did a damn sight more physical labour working his farm over 5 1/2 years than Foreman did over 10 years preaching sermons!
Jeffries trained for a year and a half for the Johnson fight, weights, pulley's, running ,wrestling , sparring abdominal boards you name it, he did it!

 

It is honestly hard to say.

Jeffries might have employed laborer's to work his farm, while he got fat, and enjoyed having no boxing fans around him.

Foreman might have at least kept his weight training up in the gym.

We just don't know.

I am sue that he did his best, but I am equally sure that he didn't get his best back!

 

Do YOU rate Munroe as an opponent?
Pollacks book states Jeffries worked with a 350lbs sand bag it doesnt say he lifted it on his shoulder its suspended by a rope from the ceiling in the photo.
It further says he held it on his head, but does not say or imply, it wasnt still suspended from the rope we see in the photo. The steer was supposed to have been lifted into a wagon by Jeffries and later, when dressed and gutted weighed out at 510lbs so it would have been 600lbs +when he lifted it unaided into a the back of a wagon.There are no reporters names beside these claims in the book and they are not made by Pollack,[ for whose research I have the highest regard,] just written as they were reported by unnamed sources.
Do you believe Jeffries could pick up a 600lbs+ dead weight steer and alone place it in the back of a wagon?

 

There is quite a bit of footage of Jeffries forking alfalfa onto wagons ,milking cows and digging irrigation ditches.That's considerably more physical activity than Foreman did for a decade! And I have Foreman's auto biography so I do know! Jeffries was in much better physical shape when he returned to boxing,than Foreman he was younger, and lighter than he had been for the his last fight with Munroe!Photos show him with a six pack,they show the comebacking Foreman with a spare tire that would grace a truck around his stomach.and he was about 30lbs of fat heavier[/QUOTE]

 

Jim jeffries himself addressed this question in one of the biography series he wrote for the newspapers. These were written well after his retirement adn i thought he seemed fairly honest in most of what he said.

It is a little ironic, because in hindsight, Johnson's pre title run is sensational, maybe the best ever. But Jeffries rates the real reason why the fight didnt happen was that Johnson was not considered top class. I think this is probably the truth, although again, with hindsight, this line of thinking is wrong.

You need to remember that the Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Corbett era was considered a golden era and one that Jeffries was integrally connected to perhaps even considered the best of due to his wins over Corbett and Fitzsimmons. This was tier 1 and (aided by his image of massive size) he was considered as a clear tier 1 fighter. Tier 2 fighters were the guys like Sharkey and Ruhlin these are guys who had good records and had proven they could compete with Jeffries, but who simply were not really in the same class. These were the guys fitzsimmons tore through like butter before losing to Jeffries. There were none of these guys left to challenge Jeffries and outside of Fitzsimmons, who was still hanging on with the tier 2s, noone had dominated these guys and in fact, Fitzsimmons was still beating the tier 3 guys like Gardner and O Brien.

Tier 3 was the next group which was really the best of the tier 4 guys. These guys were fighting tier 4 guys and were the ones who were emerging as the best of the group. This is where i think that guys Like Marvin hart, Jack Johnson, and a couple of others were sitting. I think that Johnson moved from tier 4 (where he was originally losing or drawing to guys like Klondike Haynes, Bob Armstrong and Hank Griffin and others). It was a comprehensive rise in hindsight, but at the time, there was nothing to suggest that these guys were in the same class as Jeffries. Johnson would have been a credible fighter to choose as a challenger, but he wasnt a standout the same way say Joshua and Fury standout at the moment. And he certainly wasnt some type of Box office blockbuster fight.

Much is made of the Hart Johnson fight. It was certainly as close to no 1 v 2 as you could get with hindsight. But at the time, while it was two good fighters, but remember that Johnson had not been that long ago, knocked out early by clear tier 2 fighter, Choynski. Hart simply hadnt beaten tier 1 or 2 fighters. Even if they were two of the better fighters, there was nothing to suggest at this stage, taht tehy were in the same class as Jeffries.

IN modern times, i think it was similar to the Chris Byrd Lennox Lewis situation. Yes Chris Byrd probably deserved a title shot but really noone cared one way or the other and nobody expected Chris Byrd to be competitive. I think this was the situation with Johnson and Hart. While hart won, (or johnson depending on your scoring), neither did enough to be cosidered in Jeffries class by most people. As history tells us, this does not mean they were without chance, as could be seen by Tyson Douglas, Ali Liston, Braddock Baer and many other fights.

All in all though, i do think that Johnson was still improving and Jeffries was in a much better spot. It would have been a great fight and is perhaps the single biggest missed what if in history, but there was no malice, and the timing was only slightly out.

 

Many news papers say it wasn't. Johnson later in life said Hart beat him.

 

BitPlayerVesti,

]The Call (San Francisco)- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
Marvin Hart matched his gameness against the cleverness of Jack Johnson in Woodward's Pavillion last night, and at the end of twenty rounds of fierce fighting Referee Alex Greggains gave an entirely just decision in favor of Hart. He was the aggressor throughout, and there was never an instant that he was not trying in an awkward style to land on the elusive negro.

San Francisco Chronicle- 1905 Mar 29 (page 8)
To put the thing briefly the way it appeared to a man who had not interest one way or the other—only a desire to see fair play and to have the better fighter win—on the score of aggressiveness Hart was entitled to the verdict. On any other score Johnson should have been the favored one. This is a thing that will be argued on the street corners for days

The San Francisco Examiner- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
PLUCK AND AWKWARDNESS BETTER THAN A MIXTURE OF CLEVERNESS AND COWARDICE
. . .
BY W. W. NAUGHTON
. . .
It would be ridiculous to say that Hart is a better ringster than Johnson. If Johnson were only as stout hearted as the man from Louisville the chances are the negro would dispose of his opponent of last night in ten rounds.
Johnson did his best work with a straight left. He also bruised the side of Hart's face with right crosses. Hart, although anything but a neat boxer, had an awkwardly clever way of stopping Johnson's uppercuts.
Hart scored his biggest success with a heart punch. He reached Johnson's ribs with this blow a number of times in every round. He also clouted Johnson on temple and jaw with right swings.

The San Francisco Examiner- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
By Jabez White.
Hart was the aggressor all the way and the referee could do nothing but give him all the glory. The big fellows clinch too much, something you very seldom see across the pond.

Oakland Tribune- 1905 Mar 29 (page 6)
Clearly showing himself strong on point, Johnson lack the grit and aggressiveness of Hart and this lost him the fight, for previous to entering the ring the big fellow had been warned by Referee Greggains that should the battle go the full twenty round he would give the verdict to fighter who was the most aggressive—in other made the fight.
And on this line Hart fully earned the long end of the purse. He was after the black man at all times except when sent back by the colored champion's hooks and jabs. Had the decision been given on points scored by clean hitting, blocking and punishment administered, then Johnson would have won by a country mile.

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RE Hart vs Johnson, let's put it to bed. Johnson lost. His fans have too many excuses, let's see what the man in the ring had to say.

Boxing Illustrated December 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

" Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."


Okay if we sample Bit's reports, Johnson's own words, and Adam's well researched Hart book ( Which I might want to purchase as its uncovered ground for me ) we know who the winner is.

 

As usual, there's much to like in your post ,but if I might make few points.
By1904 Johnson was clearly in the no 1 tier and newspapers recognized this and were actively questioning when/if Jeffries would risk his title against him.Johnson lost to Choynski in1901 several years earlier.
Jeffries was kidding the public and possibly himself when he states Johnson was not top class in 1904.At the time Jeffries was openly telling everyone and his Granny that no matter what accomplishments Johnson achieved ,no matter whom he beat he would never risk his title against him.
"When there are no more White challengers to fight I shall retire,I will not risk my title against a black man"Jim Jeffries.
In later years when public opinion possibly found these sentiments less acceptable,[at least when openly expressed,]and Jeff found himself in a less defensible position regarding color prejudice he changed tack.
Perhaps Jeffries was trying to dilute some of his earlier statements,or maybe the punches Fitz and Johnson had hit him with had come home to roost in his brain, and he had forgotten his earlier public pronouncements?

Either way, the fact is,like most Whites ,Jeffries considered Blacks inferior to Whites and many times stated he would not risk being beaten by a Black fighter he sincerely believed he had a duty to keep the title out of the Black hands of a coloured boxer.
He made a public announcement when he came back saying it was to redeem the honor of the White Race.
When Johnson found that Jeffries had agreed to face him,he sent him a telegram offering his congratulations.Sam Berger , who was handling Jeffries affairs advised Jeff to send a reply saying"Thanks I anxiously await the match".Jeffries overuled him, and no reply was sent .
At the signing of the fight Jeffries had told Rickard there would be no symbolic shaking of hands and in the lead up to the fight he made several public statements disparaging Johnson personally, calling him a skunk ,a ****, a dinge, and a ******. Johnson did not respond in kind in the press contenting himself with saying he was now the champion and Jeffries the challenger
. There was no traditional shaking of hands in the ring and when Johnson went over to commiserate with Jeffries for his hopeless but very brave stand against him ,Jeffries did not shake his hand in congratulations or speak to him at all. Afterwards Jeffries asked one of his corner to ask Johnson if he would give him his gloves.Johnson mindful of the many insults heaped on him by Jeffries said ,"I dont owe him anything".

In1904 who was a more deserving challenger than Johnson? Fitz and Corbett had come out of extended retirement, Corbett not having won a fight for years and both received title shots ,Corbett 2 of them Ruhlin got one ,though Fitz had beaten him convincingly two fights earlier.Then there is Jack Munroe ,the hyped never was, Jeffries defended against him in a farce of a fight the financial returns of which prompted Jeffries to retire.

Does anybody seriously believe Johnson was not more deserving of a title shot than Munroe?
Bottom line the fight did not happen whilst Jeffries was champion because he would not risk his title against a man of color.and he many many times said so.
The only thing you can say in Jeffries favour on his racist stance is that he was totally honest and open about it.
A position he later tried to distort by absurdly pretending the reason he ignored Johnson's challenges was because Johnson was not deserving of a title shot!
I would have more respect for Jeffries if he had maintained his original stance and not ,"trimmed his sails," as public opinion swung against his original one!