Is Jim Jeffries criminally underrated today?

I didn't know Bob Armstrong, Hank Griffin and Peter Jackson were white. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

This cat hates any fighter born before 1982. Constant instigating.

 

Johnson stated the best heavyweight before himself was Fitzsimmons.Langford stated the best heavyweight he ever saw was Dempsey .Sharkey died in1953, so Sharkey only saw them up to Marciano.Fitzsimmons died in1917 so he only saw them up to Willard ,all seven of them ! The training clip of Jeffries is with his brother Jack who did not weigh 200lbs.Corbett died in1933 So he never saw a prime Louis .Neither Corbett , Sharkey or Burns was likely to pick a black fighter as tops I'd take their opinions with a huge dose of salt. The idea that Jeffries has only comparatively recently lost ground in the all time list because his fans have died is disproved by the fact that Jack Johnson still figures prominently in modern lists.The last time the Ring magazine did a poll was in2017 this is the result.And the pollsters
Trainers: Teddy Atlas, Pat Burns, Virgil Hunter and Don Turner.

Matchmakers: Eric Bottjer, Don Chargin, Don Elbaum, Bobby Goodman, Ron Katz, Mike Marchionte, Russell Peltz and Bruce Trampler.

Media: Al Bernstein, Ron Borges, Gareth A Davies, Norm Frauenheim, Jerry Izenberg, Harold Lederman, Paulie Malignaggi, Dan Rafael and Michael Rosenthal

Historians: Craig Hamilton, Steve Lott, Don McRae, Bob Mee, Clay Moyle, Adam Pollack and Randy Roberts

 

Johnson stated the best heavyweight before himself was Fitzsimmons.Langford stated the best heavyweight he ever saw was Dempsey .
"Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

Sharkey died in1953, so Sharkey only saw them up to Marciano. Fitzsimmons died in1917 so he only saw them up to Willard ,all seven of them ! The training clip of Jeffries is with his brother Jack who did not weigh 200lbs.Corbett died in1933 So he never saw a prime Louis .Neither Corbett , Sharkey or Burns was likely to pick a black fighter as tops I'd take their opinions with a huge dose of salt.

The idea that Jeffries has only comparatively recently lost ground in the all time list because his fans have died is disproved by the fact that Jack Johnson still figures prominently in modern lists.

The last time the Ring magazine did a poll was in2017 this is the result.And the pollsters
Trainers: Teddy Atlas, Pat Burns, Virgil Hunter and Don Turner.

Matchmakers: Eric Bottjer, Don Chargin, Don Elbaum, Bobby Goodman, Ron Katz, Mike Marchionte, Russell Peltz and Bruce Trampler.

Media: Al Bernstein, Ron Borges, Gareth A Davies, Norm Frauenheim, Jerry Izenberg, Harold Lederman, Paulie Malignaggi, Dan Rafael and Michael Rosenthal

Historians: Craig Hamilton, Steve Lott, Don McRae, Bob Mee, Clay Moyle, Adam Pollack and Randy Roberts
The two other pollsters were Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis,neither of whom voted for themselves.


1.ALI
2.LOUIS
3.JOHNSON
4.MARCIANO
5.HOLMES
6.DEMPSEY
7.FOREMAN
8.FRAZIER
9.TYSON
10.LISTON


11.LEWIS.
12. HOLYFIELD
13.TUNNEY
14.SULLIVAN*
15.JEFFRIES
16.W KLITSCHKO
17.V KLITSCHKO
18.CORBETT
19. BOWE
20.FITZSIMMONS

*Note there is no film of Sullivan fighting, only a couple of parts of rounds of Corbett, in a fight in which he is knocked out,and the same of Fitz plus when an old man against Bill Lang when he too is ko'd . The excuse that Jeffries has been demoted as his fans have died off and there is liitle footage of him therefore does not hold water.There is more of Jeffries than Sullivan, none at all fighting, more of him than of Corbett, and more of him than of Fitzsimmons

 

My Top 10 fave fighters were all born before 1970.

 

Having him in the top 15-20 is OK with me. He certainly dominated his era, but it was a weak era. He was a very strong man, and could take terrific punishmen....sort of a 19th century Tex Cobb. Fitzsimmons was too old at the time of either fight...37 and 39...to be taken seriously. IMO that was his best opponent. Same goes for Peter Jackson. Too old at the time. The rest were either pansies like Corbett (who nevertheless pounded Jeffries in their first match) or just plain crude. Sharkey, for example, was seriously crude. Tough, but crude. He takes some grief from modern critics for not wanting to fight a black boxer for the title but he certainly fought fights with blacks and trained with them consistently. Unlike Tunney, for example.

Had he fought and defeated Johnson during his title reign in say 1905, he would be rated much higher....and Johnson much lower. Maybe Johnson never gets another shot at the title and we never hear from him again.

 

"As I have had it listed in The Ring Record Book for some years, my all-time rating of heavyweights is as follows: 1. Jack Johnson, 2. Jim Jeffries, 3. Bob Fitzsimmons, 4. Jack Dempsey, 5. James J. Corbett, 6. Joe Louis, 7. Sam Langford, 8. Gene Tunney, 9. Max Schmeling, 10. Rocky Marciano.

I started the annual ranking of heavyweights in the 1953 with only six listed: 1. Jack Johnson, 2. Jim Jeffries, 3. Bob Fitzsimmons, 4. Jack Dempsey, 5. James J. Corbett, 6. Joe Louis.

In later years I found it necessary to expand the ratings in all classes to top 10, with these top listings: heavyweights, Jack Johnson; light heavies, Kid McCoy; middleweights, Stan Ketchel; welters, Joe Walcott; lightweights, Joe Gans; feathers, Terry McGovern; bantams, George Dixon; flyweights, Jimmy Wilde."Nat Fleischer.

 

Jeffries is a genuinely difficult fighter to rate.

Even if you have read every available word on him, and seen every available second of film, there will still be an element of interpretation involved.

For this reason, I feel that any ranking in the top twenty, could be justified.

 

I wouldn’t say he was criminally underrated but he always looked to me as one guy you wouldn’t want to take on in a street or back alley fight outside the ring.

 

Higher than 15 would be pushing it I think,before 1950 you could reasonably rank him up to and in the top 10 imo.

 

I submit that anybody who dominated an era, has an argument for a top ten, or even top five slot.

 

How much credit you give a man for,"dominating an era"depends largely on who was around ,and their ages as far as I am concerned.You could/should also factor in whom he did not face as champion, in Jeffries case the three best black fighters Martin ,Johnson,and McVey.

 

I guess you have to be Ko'd by a light heavyweight, floored by a middle weight and outboxed by another, drop fights to others, draw with a few with non-top ten type and duck you best conception to rate, eh?

Both Griffin and Armstrong were more accomplished than Mcvay and Langford that Johnson fought.

For example, Griffin Jack Johnson ( past his prime ) shortly before Johnson had an easy time with the teenaged Sam McVey.

Armstrong beat name heavyweights, who did the 20-year-old 156 pound Sam Langford beat at heavyweight prior to meeting Jack Johnson?

PS: Jeffries has a reported KO 1 over Martin, which makes sense as nearly everyone good Ko'd Martin early.

You asked for offers for Johnson to fight Langford. I showed you no less than three ducks from Johnson where the money was up, one of which includes him pulling out of a signed contract, the other taking a fight for no money over an offer.

Troll on dude.

 

To help you out Johnson called Jeffries the greatest. His ranking of Fitz #1 was in a pound for pound sense. Besides Jeffries is 2-0, with 2 KO's over Fitz.

As for Langford he agreed with the rest of the fighters of the times that Jeffries was the greatest.

 

Opinions on the fighters, writers and managers of the time:

JOHN L. HORGAN, Miami
New Terrace Plaza Hotel proprietor
"I sang with old John L. Sullivan's revue. That's how far back I go. Jack Johnson was great, but not as great as Sullivan, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey or Jim Jeffries. I doubt that Louis, Dempsey, or Jeffries could have licked John L. in his prime. Jim Corbett beat John when he was all washed up."

BERNARD GIMBEL, Greenwich, Conn.
Chairman of the Board
Gimbel Bros.
"No, Tunney was the greatest. I saw Johnson around Philly for years. Look at the men he fought. True, he was a great boxer, but Tunney was a fighter, a more resourceful boxer, and he wasn't a spurt fighter. He had great speed and could go at top speed as long as necessary."

E.J. "MIKE" ROWELL, Amherst, Mass.
Trade association executive
"No. The greatest was the Manassa Mauler, Jack Dempsey. I saw Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, who licked Johnson, Dempsey, Braddock, Max Baer, Primo Camera, Gene Tunney and Firpo, the Wild Bull of the Pampas. Dempsey always came in with fists flailing like pistons. He never let up."

JACK DEMPSEY, New York
Former heavyweight champion
"It's unfair to name any one heavyweight as the greatest. Other greats were Gene Tunney, Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries and Jake Kilrain. Tunney and Corbett would have outboxed Johnson. Fitzsimmons might have ruined him for all time with one of his murderous body punches."

JACK McDONALD, San Francisco
Call Bulletin
Sports editor
"No. Johnson can't be faulted for his defensive skill, but Jeffries and Dempsey were the greatest offensively and Jim Corbett was one of the most scientific fighters who ever lived. Lightweight Joe Gans was the greatest fighter of all time. He had everything a man could have in boxing skill."

GEORGE BARTON, Minneapolis
Chairman Minnesota
State Athletic Commission
"Yes. He would defeat all heavies from John L. Sullivan to Rocky Marciano in any distance, from six rounds to 60. Old-timers like Fleischer and I know how great he was. He was often obliged to permit opponents, particularly white men, to go the limit or make good showings in order to get fights."

GENE TUNNEY, Stamford, Conn.
Undefeated heavyweight champion
"No. I've seen many great heavyweights and I've made a painstaking study of other records. The greatest heavyweights were John L. Sullivan, Jim Corbett, Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey, the greatest killer of all. In his prime, I think Dempsey would have chased Johnson out of the ring."

LOU STILLMAN, New York City
Owner Stillman's boxing gym
"Yes. He could do everything better than any other fighter. He was a terrific puncher at long range. Even Jim Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons, who rated Jim Jeffries over him as a fighter, said Johnson was the greatest defensive battler in history. He was a master of the lost art of feinting."

JOE WOODMAN, New York City
Fight manager
"No. Johnson was a great defensive fighter. Jim Jeffries was the all-time great. He had such a terrific punch that he would take a blow to land one. Sure, Johnson beat him in 1910, but Jim came out of six years' retirement, way past his peak, in response to public clamor. It's the only fight he ever lost."