Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

-"Clean up" becomes a matter of semantics but lets get this out here.

#1 Bivins took out Gus in a non title bout with an undisputable UD. He than dominated #3 LHW Ezzard Charles and than beat #2 LHW Christoforids to claim the duration LHW title. Christofrids felt he won, but is there any official controversy?

This paper from Indiana reports it being close and hard fought but Bivins won the Championship rounds to secure it. No contoversy mentioned.

[url]http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu/cdm/ref/collection/IRecorder/id/95608[/url]

Bivins than defended against #1 contender Marshall. So that's a pretty good round up of the major players in the early 40s.

As far as HWs go, Bivins beat Mauriello for the Duration HW title. Close but without controversy. Defended against #1 Pastor in a SD, dropping Pastor twice as he did in the first fight. Took a rematch against #1 Mauriello in a close but not controversial fight, defeating him again. Dominated old rival Bettina. Beat his next highest rated contender Murray twice to set the record straight. So there is no doubt he was the man at HW in 43.

Jimmy Bivins' right to wear the duration heavyweight diadem was unchallenged today after he had disposed of Lee Q. Murray in a return 10 rounder. Murray, from Norwalk, Conn., had created some doubts about Bivins' superiority in the ranks of the active heavies when he almost triumphed by a TKO in their first tussle, but Jimmy dispelled those uncertainties before a capacity crowd of 13,774 at the Arena last night


Bivins was than took out of action for a year. We start to see some slippage after that. He beat several contenders but drew with Bettina despite dominating him before the lay off. He took out his next highest rated contender Sheppard and #1 LHW Moore. He loses to Walcott in 46 but may have deserved the nod, but than loses convincingly to Murray.

So really Bivins' run is mid 42 starting with the Maxim win to his lay off in 44.

-A full time heavy after 43, was actually my argument.


-You must be specific. I say Marshall was a fair fight against his #1 LHW contender. Bivins was a big LHW when he was the Duration Champion, that's just the way it is. Sure, his weight and reach was an advantage. I never said it was not. But does that mean we discredit anyone who is bigger than their opponents? That's just stupid. If Bivins came in over the LHW limit like he did against Moore I could understand, but in this case, he did not. It was a LHW sanctioned bout with both men within the limits. Bivins has longer arms and weighed more..so what. Should we wipe Patterson from Liston's resume?

-Eh...

 

I think your example of his supposedly cleaning out the HW division is a better example of what Im stating and how you are taking this out of context. By Bivins beating a guy that Louis cleaned out of the division (and it was Louis who literally cleaned the division from top to bottom before Bivins made it in at just the right time), a guy in Lee Murray and Mauriello who had done absolutely nothing to be rated highly at HW except be active during an era when most men were off to war, and a small LHW who ate himself into HW after Conn cleaned him out of the LHW division, didnt really clean out the division but instead inherited a couple of divisions that had already been cleaned out and/or cannibalized by the war. Thats why I say that Bivins came along at the right time because at HW Louis had stomped everyone available. The two biggest names in those divisions were Conn and Louis and those guys were on the shelf so Bivins was named "duration" champion which was meaningless. It was a paper title used to sell tickets and wasnt that successful at it. It was largely forgotten until, like I mentioned above, Bivins came back into vogue and suddenly people started talking about how he had been a champion. He wasnt a champion of anything more than a depleted division featuring the leftovers of the lighter divisions and Louis who hadnt already volounteered or been called up for service.

 

-When Louis left we had the 30s contenders like Abe Simon, Buddy, Nova, and Conn still being recylced in the rankings. They were done.

What Bivins did was claim victory over all his War contemporaries in Mauriello, Bettina, Christi, Gus, Murray, Maxim, Marshall, Thompson, and Sheppard as well as the men who would go on to dominate the post-War period in Billy Smith, Charles, and Moore, arguably Walcott. That's a hell of run. Argue what you will. He got wins over the present and the future of two weight classes. That's a great run.

Louis was gone for like 2 years. Conn was gone and turned out to be done. Duration Heavyweight Champion means something.

Nah, Louis prior to the war was the Champion of the depleted divison. Louis is my all time #1 HW, but you could agree he cleaned out the left overs the past era in aging or winding down fighters like Max Baer, Schemling, Sharkey, Braddock, Carnera..etc. And ruled a depleted divison aftewards.

Bivins put his stamp on the early 40s.

1942 year LHW rankings. Bivins' presence on the War Era LHW scene.


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1943 Year End HW Rankings: Bivins' presence on this class of War Era regulars.



[url]Joe Louis[/url]*, Champion

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You are pretending that ONLY Louis and Conn were gone during the war. You do realize that a MASSIVE amount of fighters were inactive during this time leaving these rankings somewhat suspect at best. Furthermore to say the 30s guys were being recycled and done in the same sentence is totally ignoring the fact that they were done because it was Louis who cleaned that division out top to bottom and then joined the war. When Bivins came in the division had been decimated by a combination of Louis and the war effort. Thats an indisputable fact. So to pretend that some promoters belt of "duration champion" was anything other than just that is looking at this with tunnel vision. If it was so important why was it totally forgotten the instant Louis came back and discussed only RARELY over the next 50+ years and never again revived?

 

Seems I'm not alone in my opinions.:think

 

It is but where do you rank it?

Leonard between 1979-81 has Benitez, Duran, and Hearns, in addition to Ayub Kalule and several other top guys. Duran's a consensus top 10 guy, hearns 50-60, benitez 100. If we golf scored them (lowest possible number being the best) who can beat those three names, all pretty much prime.

I don't have to mention Greb and 1919. Gans and Benny Leonard. Henry Armstrong in the late '30's, Langford in the aughts.

Just among heavyweights; Klompton mentioned Louis who beat almost literally every threat to his title from 1939 to '41. Tyson from '86-'88; look at the top 10 ranking from then and count the numbers. How about Jeffries and the first half of his title reign or Johnson and the lead up to his?

Anyway the important thing is, where would you put it amongst two year streaks? Top 10 or 20?

 

-Other than Conn and Louis can you name the specific fighters that joined the war effort who would have theoretically halted Bivins, Mauriello, and these new crop of fighters..etc.?

-Bivins was already the top LHW contender prior to the war and beat Gus before the title was frozen. As for the heavies, the top 10 prior to the War.

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Active during Bivins' run:

Franklin-lost to Pastor, Savold, Harry Hobo
Pastor-lost to Bivins and Mauriello
Bettina-lost to Bivins
Turkey-would lose to Murray, Valentino, Pastor, and Bivins
Nova-fell from rankings (retired in 45)
Godoy-fell from rankings


Military Service: Louis, Conn, Toles?

Abe Simon retired on doctors orders
Buddy Baer retired and went to the movies
Harry Hobo lost to Murray and retired early with eye problems.

So it looks there was a changing of the guard already happening regardless. Most of these men did not serve. When the war effort got real serious, Bivins himself lost a year in 1944.

-This would only work to discredit Bivins if he made his name off Louis' left overs and the not fighters that would be the face of the division for the next 10+ years.

-It meant that Bivins was the best of the active 40s fighters. And apparently Louis and Conn were the only real impact exclusions.

 

After being crushed, I don't blame you for becoming a cheerleader on the sidelines.

 

Wait, who exactly was "the face of the division for the next ten years" and how many of them did Bivins actually clean out? Because youve been flip flopping back and forth on whether Bivins was either a LHW or a HW and whether it mattered when fighting guys like Charles, Moore, Maxim, etc and those guys were absolutely NOT the face of the HW division for the next ten years.

Thats the problem with guys like Bivins. These platitudes are tossed out there and then when holes start getting pecked and poked into the argument the goal posts change and someone has to start arguing out of both sides of their mouth. If you want to pretend like there wasnt a war going on and that it didnt effect the sport so be it. Just dont look at a single Ring Magazine from 1941 thru 45 where the sport was so depleted they began for the first time heavily covering military bouts and the boxers in the military.

So you argue that the war didnt effect either division but then note that regardless of the war, and Louis' domination (by your own tally he had fought and stopped six of the top ten contenders. Bivins only fought three of those guys and split fights with them (actually losing to all at the time of those rankings) which is hardly the utter domination you characterize and more to the point if these guys were all fading so badly why did they beat Bivins?

You characterize the guys Bivins beat as the "new face of the division" which essentially means that with the old guard retiring or going into service they suddenly found themselves in the ratings for beating each other, which again illustrates my point and the circular logic used to justify these guys being supposedly great, i.e. A is great because he beat B who was great because he beat C who was great because he beat A. I just dont agree with it. Especially in light that some of these guys dont exactly look like anything special. Turkey Thompson is a case in point. Some are high on him and the footage of him, which was shot right before he lost to Bivins he looks terrible. As I said before, when Bivins got his chance at a completely shot Joe Louis he was scared shitless and stunk out the place. Nobody considered him in Louis class when Louis was actually still Louis and thats why "the duration championship" was essentially meaningless. Why is it any different than these ridiculous interim titles, diamond belts, and super championships we have today? Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, considered for an instant that Joe Louis wasnt champion and that Jimmy Bivins was even a pimple on his ass for "the duration." You might as well claim the HW championship of the world of Cleveland Ohio because it has about as much validity.

 

-Savold, Murray, Maxim, Sheppard, Moore, Charles, Turkey, Mauriello, Flynn, Valentino, Bettina. And he technically outpointed/drew Walcott in a weird loss. All these men would be a continous presence in the divison thoughout the remainder of the 40s and some into the early 50s.

From 46, 4 years after Bivins run as Duration Heavyweight Champ

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From 48, 6 years after Bivins run as Duration Heavyweight Champ.

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7 years after..

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8 years after...







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-I've been crystal clear on the matter and never once flipped my opinion. What are you confused about? It depends on what timeframe you are talking about or the particular match.

-Be specific, I've done no such thing.

-I did not pretend there wasn't a war. I actually broke down the specific rated fighters who left for military service and who stayed. That's concrete, unlike your vague theoretical dismissive generalization.

-I never said that. I did say it had no effect on Bivins LHW standing, who was really the top guy before the War after beating Gus.

-You missed the point entirely. The point is that only three of these men actually left for the military. Three key players retired as a natural progression of their careers. Bivins and the War Era gang naturally overcame the others in the ratings, rather Jimmy initally lost to some of them or not.

-Not ture. As I pointed out. Mauriello, Savold, Valentino, Murray and Bivins would beat these hold overs to enter the ratings.


Franklin-lost to Pastor, Savold, Harry Hobo
Nova-Lost to Mauriello, Savold
Harry Hobo-Lost to Murray
Pastor-lost to Bivins and Mauriello
Bettina-lost to Bivins
Turkey-would lose to Murray, Valentino, Pastor, and Bivins

-You keep bringing this up but its irrelevant to what is being discussed. I think Louis beats everyone...so? And Bivins at that point was well declined himself, reports of him slowing down as early as the mid 40s.

-The Duratoin Champion means exactly that. With Louis away, Bivins was recognized as the best active heavyweight until he himself had to leave the ring for a year.

 

You'll never crush me Sunshine, you just keep moving the goalposts when you are challenged. Keep up with the snidey comments they suit you.

 

You can say I **** perfectly round balls as well, you can say I kill babies, but ultimately there really isn't any evidence of such a thing happening.

Where exactly did I move any goalposts when challenged?

And keep snickering like a school girl because someone disagrees with me, it suits you.

 

Do you care to dig your way out of this rubble, Mcvey?

 

I could care less who agrees or disagrees with you. I just don't like you Pally. And now , not for the first time , you are boring me.