Is Joe Calzaghe underrated? Yes or No?

You agree, but you don't agree?

 

I don't see Joe as highly as you think I do.
The wins over an aging RJJ and Hopkins are well timed to make for better resumes, but they're not big wins.
The win over Kessler is big.
The win over Jeff Lacy isn't that big, because Jeff Lacy isn't that big.
The win over past prime Chris Eubank, and Joe's WBO reign isn't that big.
Am I overestimating Joe Calzaghe?

 

Your posts are very confusing.

You said you weren't in that minority.

 

I use google translate, and sometimes I do a copy-paste before checking how it's translated.
So:
I'm in the minority who don't see Joe as big as the majority.
But Joe is not even a Minor boxer, and it would be interesting how the majority ranks him in ATG SMW terms, and ATG H2H terms.

 

You're talking about Joe Calslappsy?

I've never seen a fighter slap and cuff opponents, to the point that their face swells up and starts leaking blood, on many occasions. And the refs just let it slide.

In his earlier days he looked sharp, but........

 

Velt beat Brähmer and Woodhall beat Branco who are way better than anyone Liam Smith's beat.

 

Surely every ranking depends on the parameters that are used. Simply when I make a ranking of the best in a category I evaluate what that boxer has done in that category (opponents faced, results obtained against them, time at the top, etc ...). For example, if I make a ranking of the best middleweights of all time GGG is certainly ahead of Leonard, Hearns and Duran, while in a p4p ranking the Kazakh is certainly behind them.

Of the 10 world champions defeated by Calzaghe 3 were world champions when he defeated them, Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins (Ring Magazine). Then clearly they are not all on the same level. But having defeated 21 opponents with the world super middleweight title at stake, having also defeated a great champion like Hopkins, having been at the top for over a decade and having retired undefeated are things that make me consider Calzaghe the best super middleweight of all time.

In your opinion, who is the best super middleweight of all time? (and by what parameters?)

 

Fair enough. I think Veit was better than Liam Smith, but no strong argument from me against your first point.

Depending on your definition of "world class" fighter, you could argue the number as even less than 12. Calzaghe has 10 x wins over boxers that were ranked top 10 by Ring Magazine in either the annual rankings immediately before he beat them, immediately after he beat them or both.

He also beat Sakio Bika in October 2006, who doesn't appear in Ring Magazine's annual rankings until April 2008. He remained ranked top 10 by Ring for c.6-years thereafter.

Mario Veit was never ranked by Ring so far as I can see, which is strange as in November 2004 he beat #8 ranked Charles Brewer (who had been top 10 ranked at SMW for 7-years) to move to 45-1, with his sole loss up to that point being Calzaghe. He lost to Joe again in his next fight.

So, I make your claim that Calzaghe beat around 12 x world class fighters, a reasonable one.

Still, going 13-0 vs world class fighters isn't bad.

The top 3 Ring ranked SMW's in April 2006 were Calzaghe, Kessler & Lacy. Joe had just beaten Lacy & would beat Kessler the following year.

RJJ was shot when Calzaghe beat him so far as I'm concerned, but Hopkins was the Ring Magazine champion when Calzaghe beat him. So, Joe left one division, having beaten the best 2 x fighters in the world in that division other than himself, moved up & beat the best fighter in the world in that division.

Some of Calzaghe's WBO title defences were against opponents of appalling quality, relative to a "world title" fight, as a fan of his it's frustrating he wasted so many of his prime years defending against sub-optimal opposition and he doesn't have the quality of win resume to be considered an elite P4P ATG in my opinion. When it comes to his contemporaries, he not only ranks clearly behind Mayweather, Pacquiao, RJJ & Hopkins, but behind JMM, Toney, Barrera & Morales, too, imo.

Calzaghe has a reasonable argument for GOAT at SMW, based solely on fights in that division.

It's curious to me that Calzaghe is such a polarising figure. I consider everything I've written above to be both balanced & reasonable. I've cited various demonstrable facts, given a couple of positive opinions & made a couple of negative observations. I consider you a reasonable poster in the main, yet earlier today in this thread you made 10 x consecutive posts, each arguing against Calzaghe in one way or another. I recall you posting about Calzaghe quite a bit in other threads and either all, or the vast majority, of your posts have highlighted negatives about his career, or at least explained your negative interpretations of it. I can only assume either you dislike him or feel he's overrated in the main.

It's curious to me, because whilst of course a small minority grossly overrate Joe, for every "he's the greatest British fighter of all time" (he clearly isn't), you'll get some variation on "he didn't beat anybody of note beaten Eubank & an over-hyped Lacy, before getting a decent win over Kessler and then finishing his career by beating 2 old men" (ignoring wins over ranked SMWs Reid, Woodhall, Brewer & Mitchell and ignoring the fact that Hopkins was the Ring's LHW champion).

I think some people see Calzaghe's paper record, i.e. unbeaten & number of title defences, and perhaps owing to a lack of knowledge of great fighters from previous eras, overrate him in their list of ATG British fighters, whilst others underestimate the depth of his SMW win resume, assuming he beat only crap other than Eubank, Lacy & Kessler. For my part, I'm comfortable with how I rank Calzaghe's career.

 

Joe Calzaghe in power slap yo.

 

He fought them all...and he beat them all...and there were no MMA guys to pad his record...

 

By and large, he's underrated imo, but every now and then he gets drastically overrated for about 15 minutes then goes back to being underrated.

 

That's where he belongs in my opinion.

 

I think Woodhall was probably a bit better than Liam Smith indeed, but Mario Veit was European level fighter. Braehmer was never that good. He held a title without ever beating a world class opponent, there are fighters defending European belt against stronger opposition. Smith's wins over Eubank Jr. and Liam Williams are superior in my eyes.

 

He's underrated

 

What have Eubank Jr and Williams ever done that's superior to Braehmer? Smith also got battered by Eubank Jr in the second fight.