Is Joe Joyce underrated?

He s not underrated but his his defence...

 

I think he's fairly rated as being ranked somewhere in the bottom of the top 10 to 15 heavyweights.

If he had beaten Zhang the first time, i'm guessing he would have been in line for a title shot, or maybe one more fight away? But losing twice to Zhang now forces him into at least a couple more must-win fights before he can get back in line, and at 38 years old the clock is ticking. (I mean, yeah, Wilder is the same age, but Wilder puts butts into seats, and he was a former champion for several years, so barring any embarrassing implosions there's no doubt he'll get another title shot before he retires.)

 

yup

 

See how Parker does vs Wilder. If he does well then Joyce regains some lost rep.

 

A southpaw sharpshooter was just all wrong for him.

 

no way fury will fight him until he picks up at least one more ko loss.

 

I don't disagree - but "would" implies it's an "if" kind of scenario.

Fury wouldn't need to try his aggressive style on Joyce, he'd just revert to type and cruise through to a wide UD... Besides, even if Joyce's chin is cracked, it's unlikely it's cracked enough that Fury's limited power would dent it.

 

But it isn't an if scenario. No way Fury fights someone who brings an iron jaw and constant pressure, with size and strength he can't deal with. 0% chance he will fight Joyce unless he gets confirmation that punch resistance is gone.

 

More to the point, Joyce doesn't bring enough cash to make Fury consider fighting on after he loses to Usyk.

Fury would beat Joyce comfortably unless he turns up in the shape he did for Ngannou, but as you say it wouldn't happen.


Then again, if we're going there, Usyk wouldn't feel the need to fight him again either... And of course Wilder would run a mile.

 

I remember seeing a Joyce interview shortly after the first Zhang fight and he looked a shell of himself, no confidence at all. Logically he'll be even worse going forward. He's done and I can see him being fed to a prospect very soon.

 

Joyce was very convincing in beating Dubois though. And Dubois is getting all the opportunities.

If Dubois wins he should rematch Joyce. Joyce would beat him again and reclaim his place.

If Miller wins he should get his chance against Miller.

I don’t think he is a write off yet because he lost to one opponent.

 

"Joyce would beat him again and reclaim his place."

I don't agree. He needed 10 rounds to wear down a green Dubois and that was a prime Joyce, the scorecards weren't looking good for Joyce either. It's not just about losing to one opponent, it's the manner of the defeats and what it's taken out of him at this stage of his career. I think Frank wants to feed him to someone, I strongly suspect he was set up against Zhang too.

 

I thought Joyce was more convincing against Dubois then Usyk was.

As far as Zhang vs Joyce goes; Joyce needed a step up in competition as well. He needed a signature win to fight for the title. It didn’t happen as planned though. But that’s the sport, it was a honest loss. I don’t really hold it against him, Zhang was better.

 

"I thought Joyce was more convincing against Dubois then Usyk was."

Certainly in one respect: Usyk was hurt far more by one punch (whether low or not). But Usyk dominated most of the rounds, maybe shut Dubois out and stopped him slightly faster, whereas Joyce and Dubois were going 50-50 and Dubois was landing a lot of big punches over 10. I don't think Joyce will be as durable, as mentally strong or as fast (not that he was ever fast but you know what I mean) going forward.

"He needed a signature win to fight for the title."

He had one: Parker. Joyce was mandatory, he could have easily done a Hrgovic and fought a jobber like de Mori. There was absolutely no need to put him in with relatively unknown Zhang, who many/most hardcores thought beat Hrgovic and certainly did the vast majority of the damage. Warren signed Zhang as a precondition of that fight happening too. I wrote an essay on how I thought they set Joyce up a while ago:

Was Joyce set up?

Warren wanted Joyce to lose against Dubois and was openly enraged when it didn’t happen; the scorecard fix was in but they didn't bank on Dubois getting his eye busted up and having such poor heart. They then gave Dubois a series of “bums” (Dinu, Bryan, Lerena in a quasi-fixed fight) before manoeuvring him to a quick world title shot vs Usyk. Joyce by contrast was third/forth in line and got harder opponents who were either going to add wear (Takam, Parker) or beat him/add huge wear (Zhang). Even Parker was given a good chance of beating Joyce by the oddsmakers. Joyce’s team knew that Zhang was dangerous because they knew that Hrgovic was good based on sparring and past results, Joyce was defensively far inferior to Hrgovic and Joyce had trouble with southpaws. But for some reason they made the fight regardless. When the damaged Joyce was beaten then (ideally) he would be fed to the 12 years younger and vastly less worn big punching Dubois in a rematch. And Warren had the option to sign Zhang (potentially enabling him to crack the Chinese market) as a precondition of beating Joyce! Zhang being a better heavyweight (more chance of beating Joshua/whoever) with far greater commercial potential.

“Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful.” - Darth Sidious/Frank Warren/Don King

Joyce's team is also very questionable. Sam Jones was a big proponent of BOTH Zhang fights. If Joyce is your "friend" then you don’t advise him to take the Zhang rematch because even if he somehow won, he'd have to take insane, career-shortening damage to do it. Salas sent Joyce in with an aggressive gameplan at a relatively light 256 lbs in fight 1 and then as a mover in fight 2 at a clear career heaviest 281 lbs! Make that make sense. Joyce did not want the rematch (he said immediately after Zhang 1 that a rematch was a bad idea) but he's a low IQ fighter who was strongarmed into it by a treacherous team. Both Zhang fights were stopped quickly by the officials, although Joyce was very likely going to lose anyway and endure a lot more damage if the fights continued. But the difference is that A-side Dubois was never examined by the doctor after his eye had closed up against Joyce. Nor were there any official complaints lodged by Warren at the “premature stoppages” of Joyce.

The Zhang fight offered zero benefit: Joyce was already mandatory and he could have fought a much less dangerous opponent. Zhang wasn't a hugely lucrative fight (Joyce's rematch purse was 600k), far less than the world title fight that he was mandated for and beating Zhang wasn't going to raise Joyce's status significantly as Zhang was relatively unknown, he'd officially lost to Hrgovic and drew with journeyman Forrest. Notice that no one else in the 2023 top 10 had taken a top 10 fight; clearly their teams don't regard it as being in their self-interest. Zhang was willing to take the Hrgovic and Joyce risks because he was 39+ and had to move fast, which isn't a position that practically anyone else was in.

 

Having little faith in him at top level is about right. He was exposed as another UK hype brand. There were clear signs of this, but when he was stopped twice, that exposed him badly, since the myth was that he was indestructible, this was supposed to be his biggest asset. So now he's slow, not a KO artist, old, has no defensive skills, and also doesn't have the chin advertised.

Bingo, that's why he was protected for so long.

If you get beaten up twice by a forty-year-old who was also ducking difficult opponents for a decade or so until recently, that's bad news for a fighter who was supposed to be able to beat everyone.

Ironically, despite being a hype product, he exposed the other big HW hype Dubious as a quitter, so that's pretty funny.

He's a typical bully fighter who relies on being bigger than everyone to win and when he faced someone his own size he got destroyed.