Is Joe Joyce underrated?

MrPook · Dec 22, 2023

Redbeard7 said: ↑

"I thought Joyce was more convincing against Dubois then Usyk was."

Certainly in one respect: Usyk was hurt far more by one punch (whether low or not). But Usyk dominated most of the rounds, maybe shut Dubois out and stopped him slightly faster, whereas Joyce and Dubois were going 50-50 and Dubois was landing a lot of big punches over 10. I don't think Joyce will be as durable, as mentally strong or as fast (not that he was ever fast but you know what I mean) going forward.

"He needed a signature win to fight for the title."

He had one: Parker. Joyce was mandatory, he could have easily done a Hrgovic and fought a jobber like de Mori. There was absolutely no need to put him in with relatively unknown Zhang, who many/most hardcores thought beat Hrgovic and certainly did the vast majority of the damage. Warren signed Zhang as a precondition of that fight happening too. I wrote an essay on how I thought they set Joyce up a while ago:

Was Joyce set up?

Warren wanted Joyce to lose against Dubois and was openly enraged when it didn’t happen; the scorecard fix was in but they didn't bank on Dubois getting his eye busted up and having such poor heart. They then gave Dubois a series of “bums” (Dinu, Bryan, Lerena in a quasi-fixed fight) before manoeuvring him to a quick world title shot vs Usyk. Joyce by contrast was third/forth in line and got harder opponents who were either going to add wear (Takam, Parker) or beat him/add huge wear (Zhang). Even Parker was given a good chance of beating Joyce by the oddsmakers. Joyce’s team knew that Zhang was dangerous because they knew that Hrgovic was good based on sparring and past results, Joyce was defensively far inferior to Hrgovic and Joyce had trouble with southpaws. But for some reason they made the fight regardless. When the damaged Joyce was beaten then (ideally) he would be fed to the 12 years younger and vastly less worn big punching Dubois in a rematch. And Warren had the option to sign Zhang (potentially enabling him to crack the Chinese market) as a precondition of beating Joyce! Zhang being a better heavyweight (more chance of beating Joshua/whoever) with far greater commercial potential.

“Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful.” - Darth Sidious/Frank Warren/Don King

Joyce's team is also very questionable. Sam Jones was a big proponent of BOTH Zhang fights. If Joyce is your "friend" then you don’t advise him to take the Zhang rematch because even if he somehow won, he'd have to take insane, career-shortening damage to do it. Salas sent Joyce in with an aggressive gameplan at a relatively light 256 lbs in fight 1 and then as a mover in fight 2 at a clear career heaviest 281 lbs! Make that make sense. Joyce did not want the rematch (he said immediately after Zhang 1 that a rematch was a bad idea) but he's a low IQ fighter who was strongarmed into it by a treacherous team. Both Zhang fights were stopped quickly by the officials, although Joyce was very likely going to lose anyway and endure a lot more damage if the fights continued. But the difference is that A-side Dubois was never examined by the doctor after his eye had closed up against Joyce. Nor were there any official complaints lodged by Warren at the “premature stoppages” of Joyce.

The Zhang fight offered zero benefit: Joyce was already mandatory and he could have fought a much less dangerous opponent. Zhang wasn't a hugely lucrative fight (Joyce's rematch purse was 600k), far less than the world title fight that he was mandated for and beating Zhang wasn't going to raise Joyce's status significantly as Zhang was relatively unknown, he'd officially lost to Hrgovic and drew with journeyman Forrest. Notice that no one else in the 2023 top 10 had taken a top 10 fight; clearly their teams don't regard it as being in their self-interest. Zhang was willing to take the Hrgovic and Joyce risks because he was 39+ and had to move fast, which isn't a position that practically anyone else was in.
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Parker got all the hype now because of the upcoming fight, but after he gets knocked out there will be a different tune.

Parker definitely isn’t bad. He is Top 15 but barely Top 10.

I believe Joyce already got passed over for a title shot prior to the Zhang fight in favor of Dubois which did make no sense. That’s what I remember from when the fights were announced.

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Is Joe Joyce underrated?

MrPook Boxing Addict Full Member

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Is Joe Joyce underrated?

MrPook Boxing Addict Full Member