Is Kostya Tszyu ATG

I have made this point throughout the thread, and nobody has been able to disprove me. If you'd like to give it a shot, do so. But from what I gain from that pathetic attempt you really don't have much to back it up, just your own biased opinion.

 

OK, that's all good and well, I am not trying to disagree with that. What I am saying is, how the hell does that make you an ATG when you're being favored against when facing B level fighters? Those were his two biggest wins. Regardless of the fact that he did win, it's the fact that those were his biggest wins, and if he was a true ATG, why the hell would anyone have any reason to doubt him at all?

In short, does what you just posted above call for ATG status? Certainly not. People throw around this term far too much, it's becoming useless. HOF? Yes. ATG? No.

I don't consider Calzaghe an ATG yet either, despite his dominance at a single weight, because he doesn't have the accomplishments to prove it. Similar to Tszyu.

He was a better boxer in his early days than he became in his supposed prime. He became more of a big puncher who was constantly looking to time you for the KO blow, instead of a slick, skilled boxer that could take you out that he was early.

What I'm arguing is accomplishments. People will say he could've beaten Oscar, Floyd, Mosley, etc, but he didn't, and the only somewhat elite fighter he ever faced(other than maybe Zab at the time) was Hatton, who handled a past prime Tszyu. Getting KO'd and beaten punch for punch by a fighter like Vince doesn't do much good when considering fantasy matchups with a guy like Mosley.

And if he was seriously considering retirement after Phillips as you say, that alone is pretty ridiculous, considering he'd only been a pro for about 5 years.

 

The thing that pisses me off in this argument about Tszyu is the Phillips fight, Okay he lost, tell me in any sport be it Football, Horse Racing, Tennis ( I noticed Roger Federer lost in the first round the other week) (The Superbowl upset?) where there are no upsets and the favourite wins every time? Sweet Pea has an obsession about Tszyu's loss to Phillips ruining his legacy. What if Ali had lost to Cooper? Bonavena had Frazier down twice in the first round of their first fight! Both Monzon and Hagler lost to ordinary fighters in their careers.
Every fighter loses at some point accept Marciano, even Floyd will lose one day. My point is Tszyu lost to Phillips, it was an upset, he shouldn't have fought that night anyway as he was ill the night before the fight, like a true champion the fight went on, also like a true champion he cameback from this setback and cleaned up the division and unified the title which had not been done for thirty years! How are his achievements not good enough for some people ? I can't help but notice how many careers took a nosedive after facing Tszyu, maybe he had something to do with it? Has Judah ever reccovered from his KO? Mitchell got shot to pieces and was useless after the second Tszyu fight, Gonzalez was a shattered fighter after fighting Tszyu, these guys were good fighters before Tszyu got hold of them.
So Hatton beats him at age 36, big deal, you might as well give cudos to Camacho for his KO of Sugar Ray Leonard!
DLH and Mosley missed him and Tszyu didn't get his mega fight, smart move on their part i think.

 

I am not saying the loss to Phillips ruined his legacy, I am saying that a fighter who's biggest wins were Judah amd Mitchell simply doesn't have an ATG legacy to begin with. Throw in the other second tier names like Gonzalez, Hurtado, etc and he has a good resume, very solid, but not ATG worthy at all.

The loss to Phillips in his prime more or less just proved he wasn't as good as everyone thought, considering it was by no means a fluke loss, he was devastated by a B level fighter at his own game.

Either way, as I said, keep away from the Phillips loss, and he still has nowhere near an ATG resume.

Taking into account the loss to Hatton, yes he was past his prime, I pointed this out as well, but comparing it to Leonard(who hadn't fought in 6 years and was well past it the last time he fought) vs Camacho is ridiculous, considering he had just scored another devastating win over Mitchell. He was by no means a shot fighter like Leonard was.

 

Sweet Pea, do you rank Ricardo Lopez as an all time great? Lopez's resume is pretty bad in terms of level of competition. Tszyu's is quite better imo.

I know Lopez never had the losses like Tszyu did (though I DID have Alvarez beating him the first fight and had the second a draw) but purely in terms of comp, you'd have to admit, Lopez fought some quite average fighters.

In terms of how dominant they looked, I think they both were fairly dominant.

I don't rate Lopez that highly, but I think you do, so I'm interested in your thoughts about how you distinguish Tszyu and Lopez.

Does the Phillips loss override Ricardo's poor level of competition in comparison to Tszyu to make Tszyu the lesser fighter?

I'm guessing that you'll say something about Ricardo being more skilfull...

 

And just for the record, Tszyu would probably sit somewhere around the 150 mark on my all time list. Head to head he'd be huge against guys with suspect chins, but I don't see him beating many greats that can take his shots.

 

You'd guess right, it would also be based on dominance and consistency. I believe there were quite a few greater fighters at Tszyu's own weight, and that, while having a good resume, he also lost to lower level comp, something Lopez never did.

Lopez was one of few undefeated champions in history as well. The best Straw-weight of all time unquestionably. Not exactly a stacked division, but in P4P terms, it helps him out in an argument when noone around his weight was even close, which is certainly not the case with Tszyu.

My main argument would be, as you said, consistency and skill-level. Lopez is one of few I rate highly based more on in-ring performance/dominance than resume/accomplishments. I saw him as quite a ways more dominant than Tszyu, more skilled in a P4P sense as well. If a guy like Jofre can be rated as highly based on the outcome of his career and his dominance, though his resume falls short of the very top guys, than why not Lopez?

Tszyu on the other hand, showed definite weaknesses in comparison to those two. He just didn't strike me as in the same league.

 

Calzaghe's beaten much better fighters than Mayweather? That is a joke. Based on resume, Floyd holds a LARGE edge.

Calzaghe will crack ATG status based on consistency and dominance if/when he beats Hopkins, just because, even though it's not as good a win in reality as someone like Kessler. Eubank was past it, for sure, though still a good win.

Hopkins beat Tarver, Wright, Trinidad, De La Hoya, and dominated the MW division like Calzaghe dominated the SMW division. Not the best of competition, but based on dominance they are lifted in their rankings. You could argue this case, but not Hagler.

Hagler beat Hearns, Mugabi, Duran, and a slew of other top notch MW's of his era, definitely better than the SMW's Calzaghe faced. Calling Hearns an overmatched WW shows your lack of knowledge of Hearns.

You could argue that he is top 5. I am not sure I would, given the fighters I named earlier. Not a very deep division, but if he was in fact, the best of all time in the division, or up there with Pryor and Chavez, he'd rate as an ATG, simply for his standing in the divison. I for one, don't rate him as highly there as everyone else does though, which is where we differ.

I didn't put much emphasis on Tszyu's loss to Hatton, just his prime loss to Phillips, therefore you putting emphasis on those fights is ridiculous. Whitaker's prime was at LW in case you didn't know. He had a few very good years at WW, as shown in fights with Chavez and McGirt, but his prime didn't last very long there, from a combination of aging and cocaine. He beat DLh in my view as well, even past his prime.

At WW, he certainly loses to Hearns, Robinson, and Leonard. Against fighters his own size like Duran, Armstrong, etc he stands a very good chance(an even better one at LW).

Alright, I think I might need to come to a bit of a compromise with you.

Tszyu was an ATG at his weight class, and you could argue one of the top 5 all time at the class. Based on resume, by no means an ATG. Based on dominance at the weight, you could argue it. It depends on what criteria you rely on more strongly.

I just chose Lopez as an ATG based on the fact that he never lost and was never even challenged until the end of his career. Based on skills, he was one of the best pure boxers I've ever seen. You need tremendous skills and consistency to rate as an ATG with a less than stellar resume. Tszyu had very good skills, and aside from the loss to Phillips, very good consistency. The loss to Phillips does hurt him though in comparison to a guy like Lopez.

I'll say, and I have said it before in arguments with guys like MSTR, that I may underrate Tszyu, but I am not prepared to say he was an ATG unless you specifically define your definition of ATG.

 

Did you have him beating Alvarez both times? If so, what were your scorecards?

Strawweight is a nothing division though. Bar Lopez, who are the great straweights of all time?

I think I would have respected Lopez a lot more if he went up to flyweight when Carbajal and Gonzalez were there and beaten them. He most likely would have. Would have done wonders for his all time standing (in my eyes at least).

Probably because Jofre's resume was still quite a bit better than Lopez's. I rate his jump from bantam to feather as much more significant too than Lopez's from straw to fly.

I rate Tszyu lower than both of them, but I don't really rate Lopez too high even though I acknowledge his skills and dominance. Basically I think he fought trash with the exception of a few fighters.

 

I've seen neither fight. Will get around to it eventually, as of now have watched most footage of a prime Lopez though, which is perhaps why he rates so highly with me in head to head terms.

That's a good point. 140 is also not a great division, but a better one than 105. Again, I base it mostly on dominance, as I got to later. I don't think Tszyu would've done as well against the other top guys of his weight as Lopez would do, even had he moved up ans faced Carbajal or Gonzalez, or someone like Chang(though style-wise that's a tough matchup).

True.

Jofre was having big problems making the BW limit at the time anyway, so I think at that time FW may have been a decent bet for him. Either way, yes he definitely had a better resume than Lopez. But, if he can rate so highly(ahead of guys with better resumes) based on his comeback, consistency, and dominance, than I can see the same for Lopez, though definitely not as high as Jofre.

True, but as you said, what else was there at 105? He jumped in weight while past his prime, though he'd likely have beaten someone like Carbajal anyway.

 

I must say i have enjoyed the battle Sweet Pea, we will have to go to the scorecards for a decision.

 

That is ridiculous. Hearns had success up to CW. Being chinny doesn't mean a damn thing, the fact is he was a great fighter who proved himself at higher weights. Definitely a much better win tham Mugabi. Duran proved himself at higher weights by taking out Barkley at 160 and Moore at 154. He was also in a much better area of his career when he faced Hagler that he was when he faced Barkley.

If you think beating overrated lacy, old Eubank, and Kessler beats a resume with the following names, you're nuts:

Hagler: Hearns, Mugabi, Duran, Hamsho, Antuofermo, Roldan, Seales, Briscoe, etc.

Again, your ranking of Hagler's wins was ridiculous, and proves you're trying to pull down other facts to prove your point about Calzaghe.

Yes there is, I have my opinion. If people voted against Terry Norris and Winky Wright, I'll surely vote against Tszyu, considering both have better resumes.

 

Smartass.

 

Fair enough. Most score the second Alvarez fight for Lopez anyway, which adds to his greatness (in being able to overcome a nemesis. Something Tszyu for instance didn't do.) though not really in my eyes since I had the second fight a draw. Lopez was landing many more punches there, but I felt Alvarez was landing the more telling shots. Good fight, you should give it a look.

140 has mostly been a bit of a 'stop over' division that great lightweights have paused at on their way to hunting game at 147, but it's also had its long reigning champs.

In any case, if you look at some of the guys that at least stopped over at 140 (if not campaigned there permanently) the list is quite impressive:

Jose Napoles
Julio Cesar Chavez
Aaron Pryor
Antonio Cervantes
Nicolino Locche
Duilio Loi
Packey McFarland
Barney Ross
Tony Canzoneri
Ike Williams
Jackie Kid Berg
Jack Britton
Eddie Perkins
Pernell Whitaker
Carlos Ortiz
Wilfred Benitez
Oscar de la Hoya
Meldrick Taylor
Henry Armstrong
Benny Leonard
Kostya Tszyu


105 is a wasteland in comparison.

Point taken and agreed with.

He did what he could at 105, there was nothing more for him to do, but it would have been nice if he campaigned at flyweight a little earlier. Might be unfair to Lopez since he could still make strawweight, but the real legacy making fights for him were at flyweight.

 

just barely imo