Is Larry Holmes

yes let's look into that... Weaver never won a fight in all of 1983!!
Larry Holmes
1. Mike Weaver (gets knocked out by Dokes in December, draws the rematch in May 83)
2. Michael Dokes ( Weaver x2 then loses to Coetzee in September)
3. Gerry ****ey (Larry just beat him)
4. Greg Page (lost to Berbick, beats Tillis who just lost and 1-1-1 Snipes)
5. Gerrie Coetzee (treading water with a draw against Thomas then gets a shot at Dokes)
6. Trevor Berbick (Holmes beat him April 81. He beats Page but loses to Snipes and s.t. Gordon)
7. James ‘Quick’ Tillis (already beat by Weaver goes and loses to Thomas, Page, Witherspoon)
8. Randall ‘Tex’ Cobb (Holmes beat him in November)
9. Tim Witherspoon (Holmes beats him May 83 after Tim beats Snipes)
10. Renaldo Snipes[Holmes beat him Nov 81 then he goes 1-1-1 until meeting Page)

So Dokes (who by the way hasn't beat anyone else in the ratings) beats Weaver controversially, draws with Weaver in a rematch then loses to the #5?

,

Larry wins three fights and Dokes wins zero fights =Dokes was the better champion of 1983? Am I missing something?

At worst, Witherspoon and Coetzee were the same level going by their fights with Snipes.

A case can be made for Thomas beating a better opponent on the year but on paper it matches Larry's previous year. Why is Witherspoon such a bad challenger last year but so good this year?

And Page was a better opponent than Smith?? I dont think so. At least Smith was winning fights.

Bey was Coetzees mandatory not Page!

weaver at #6 was behind #3 rated David Bey the #1 WBA contender Coetzee did not fight. Don't forget that part.

yes everybody was above Williams appart from Tubbs who at #12 got a shot at WBA Page!!

1985
World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Greg Page (WBA)
3. David Bey
4. Tim Witherspoon
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. James Broad
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. Carl Williams
12. Tony Tubbs
13. Tony Tucker
14. Trevor Berbick
15. Marvis Frazier

 

Stop rewriting history Choklab.

Holmes was the number 1, but after beating ****ey, his opposition was woeful.

 

Before fighting Page, Tubbs easily decisioned Bonecrusher Smith. These ratings don't reflect Tubbs position when he fought Page.

Nice try, though.

 

Actually, he did. Weaver was unbeaten in 1983. Weaver was higher ranked than anyone Holmes fought in 1983.

In 1983 Holmes fought Lucien Rodriguez (not rated by the Ring and a former Dokes victim), Tim Witherspoon (Ring #10 and arguably Holmes didn't win that one anyway), Scott Frank (not rated by the Ring), and Marvis Frazier (Ring #10 but widely considered a farce). If that wasn't bad enough, he gave up his belt rather than face his #1 contender. What a champion.

See what I mean about you ragging on Weaver, Dokes etc for losing and drawing against each other while Holmes stays unbeaten against much weaker comp (aided by a few officiating gifts when one of his soft touches accidentally turned out to be good).

Spoon was an unknown 15 fight prospect when he fought Holmes. Thomas fought him when Spoon actually had a title, was highly ranked and had some championship experience.

Now you're moving the goalposts. We're talking about rankings. Page was higher ranked than Smith in late 1984. However much you try to build up Smith, that was the reality. In any case, Page was still a better qualified challenger than the fringe journeyman that Smith was when he fought Holmes.

Actually Holmes' was Coetzee's mandatory since he was ranked #1 contender by the WBA. The Bey of Pigs wouldn't fight in South Africa.

Weaver was WBA and WBC #1 when he fought Thomas. Bey was never anyone's #1. The IBF's #1 in mid-1985 was Larry's old chum Tim Witherspoon.

Even here you're wrong. Tubbs beat Smith on the undercard of Holmes-Bey and was ranked in the top ten when he fought Page. He had to be, otherwise the fight wouldn't have been sanctioned (unlike for Holmes, who could fight whoever he liked).

 

Thomas beat his #1 contender in 1985. Holmes fought a guy who was ranked #3 at best by the Ring and everyone else. So Larry is still second best.

This argument is all over the place and has no context whatsover. Never mind that what happens in the future has no relevance to what is going on at the present moment. If a boxer is #1 contender today then he's #1 contender. It's completely irrelevant if he's only #20 next year. You've looked at a set of ratings from a particular month and used them to judge fights that took place months (and even a year) later. Berbick was not #14 when he fought Thomas. Tubbs was not #12 when he fought Page. Williams really was #12 when he fought Holmes.

If you want to talk about the future, after the Bey of Pigs, Holmes gets busted up and nicks a very controversial decision over the unheralded unranked Golden Gloves champ Williams, picks a career light-heavy to chase Rocky's 49-0 against, loses, loses again, before Tyson knocks him smack cold and down for a count of 1000. Just for good measure, Tyson easily beats numerous fighters Holmes either ducked or struggled with. At least Tubbs and Thomas were still conscious when Tyson beat them. Thomas also made a better fist of it against Tyson than Holmes did.

 

Holmes did not fight the best of his day, he was navigated around the better fighters of his day, when he fought Weaver 19-8, Weaver was a trial horse at best and it was the the HOLMES fight that gave Weaver some credence and he got the Tate fight. Holmes did not fight Tate, who many felt was the better man, he did not fight Coetzee, he did not fight Dokes and he gave up a title not to fight Page, and he did not fight Thomas. Holmes fought guys with 10 fights,12 fights, 13 fights 14 fights,15, fights and picked the inexperienced green guys and still almost lost. He fought Leon Spinks after Leon was KO'd in1 by Coetzee.14 fight David Bey lost 14 out of his next 18 fights after fighter Holmes. The best Holmes fought was Shavers who already was beaten numerous times and Kooney(who had never fought more than 8rds) I consider Holmes a top 10ish fighter but not based off his record of fighting the best of his times. Holmes is for me the most over rated fighter on ESB

 

I see where your coming from on this, but look at what was around then. Everybody was green. Tate was 20-0, Dokes was 23-0-1, page 22-3, Tubbs was 20-0, Thomas was 20-0-1 these guys had limited World level experience too. In fact some of them were quite buxom and looked more like pop group "the weather girls".

Sure Larry fought soft touches but he beat at least ten good opponents with equal credentials as the alternative champions and among that ten he beat four of the actual the belt holders too.

Factor in things like the other guys won belts by accident and really only EVER had one decent win in them before becoming disinterested losers.

Tate was not supposed to beat Coetzee. Weaver was not supposed to beat Tate. Weaver was forced to meet his #3 instead of his #1 contender. Dokes took two attempts to beat ocasio and flunked a rematch with Weaver. Page was not supposed to beat Coetzee.

Sure Larry never got to beat Tate, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Tubbs and thomas but he did beat Norton, Weaver, Spinks, Berbick, Witherspoon, Smith among the belt holders. He also beat Shavers, Snipes, Bey, C00ney and Williams who proved to be every bit as good as the green belt holders were as challengers. Each could have possibly beat any of the alternative champions that night. Possibly even Cobb and Frazier might have too.

Larry said bad things. He was a big mouth. But under the circumstance of the time, without red tape being cut like it was for Tyson in the HBO serries, Larry's record does stands up.

 

Sorry about that. you are correct.:good

But that still only makes Tubbs #9 at best when he challenges Page. It is still lower than #3 like Bey was losing to Larry.

The WBA champion lost to the Ring #9.

Each champion of 1985 selected a lower ranking challenger to defend against than the highest ranking among the two challengers Larry beat that year.

 

How was Dokes unbeaten in 1983? He fought twice that year. He drew with Mike Weaver in 1983 and he was Knocked out in 1983 by Gerrie Coetzee.

Yes weaver was ranked higher when he fought Dokes than Witherspoon was when Larry fought him. But what's the point if Dokes could not beat Weaver in 1983? He drew, then the same year, got himself Knocked out. That was his two fights of 1983. Dokes lost that year and he drew so he did not win at all that year.

 

You said Weaver never won a fight in 83.

Then we're agreed. We were arguing who fought tougher opposition and in 83 it was clearly Dokes. I doubt Dokes would have had much trouble with Rodriguez (who he already beat anyway), Frank and Frazier and surely could have eked out a one point split over 15-0 Spoon like Holmes did. Holmes has a much harder time with Weaver and Coetzee.

 

For comparison's sake, here's Ring's ratings going into the Holmes vs. Carl Williams fight -

The Ring - July 1985
(as of May 10, 1985)

Heavyweight
World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Tim Witherspoon
3. Tony Tubbs (WBA)
4. Greg Page
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. David Bey
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. James Broad
12. Carl Williams
13. Tony Tucker
14. Frank Bruno
15. Trevor Berbick

 

World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Tim Witherspoon
3. Tony Tubbs (WBA)
4. Greg Page
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. David Bey
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. James Broad
12. Carl Williams
13. Tony Tucker
14. Frank Bruno
15. Trevor Berbick


So Larry fights #12 Carl Williams as a warm up for the Spinks fight just weeks after he already fought the then #3 David Bey.

The next championship fight involves Pinklon Thomas versus Mike Weaver who was #6. It's ten months since Thomas last fought. Larry defended three times since then.

Then the next championship fight after the WBC Thomas v Weaver fight is Larry losing to Spinks.

The WBA title is not defended until the following January.

If you look at where Berbick is, he's the next challenger to the WBC title and all he beats between these ratings and meeting Thomas is the #8 David Bey.

Now if Bey can drop from #3 to #8 out of being stopped by Larry, how far does the then #9 Smith drop in the ratings out of being stopped by Larry in 84? because the same Smith is who Tubbs beat to get his shot at Page in 85'.

So for 1985, like I said, Larry beats the highest rated contender between the three belt holders and is three times more active than any other champion.

 

he didn't, he was knocked out in 1983. The draw was not a win.

Johnny Pacheck fought tough opposition when he met Joe Louis, he didn't win either.

Im sure Dokes would beat Rodriguez. Maybe Frazier. Frank is as tough as Tommy Franco Thomas who gave Dokes a pretty tough fight.

I'm not so sure a Witherspoon win is within Dokes to be honest.

Not necessarily so. Larry stopped a much younger Weaver who Dokes drew with in 1983. Dokes is also losing to guys who Weaver had already beat in 1983. Getting knocked out and such like.

1983 was a bad year for Dokes. There's no telling who he could lose to on that form.

 

Not much, as it turns out, as he wasn't any higher to begin with. Ring had Bruno at #10 when Bonecrusher beat him.

The Ring - November-December 1984
(as of October 20, 1984)

World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Gerrie Coetzee (WBA)
3. Tim Witherspoon
4. Michael Dokes
5. Mike Weaver
6. David Bey
7. Greg Page
8. Trevor Berbick
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. James Broad
11. Tony Tubbs
12. Carl Williams
(tie). Tony Tucker
(tie). Frank Bruno
15. Randall ‘Tex’ Cobb
(tie). Jeff Simms
(tie). Gerry ****ey

The Ring, January 1985
(as of December 1, 1984)

Champion:
Larry Holmes
1. Pinklon Thomas(WBC)
2. Gerrie Coetzee (WBA)
3. David Bey
4. Tim Witherspoon
5. Greg Page
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. James Broad
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. Carl Williams
12. Tony Tubbs
13. Tony Tucker
14. Trevor Berbick
15. Marvis Frazier

 

Let me say it clearly -

Spinks beat Ali to hold both the WBC and WBA titles.
Spinks was stripped of the WBA title for not fighting Norton.
Ali beats Spinks in a rematch to win the WBA title. Ali is the world champ.
Ali retired.
Tate fought Coetzee for the vacated crown, the only one Ali, world champ, had.

As said,

My words were spot on.

Absolutely, how could it not?

*Australia LOL

Love it when grubby little personal shots can't even be typed out properly, let alone have any relevance whatsoever to the topic.

Your reading comprehension is embarrassing. Nobody said he would have been favorite, but rest assured the odds would have been tight. You know, like i said.

What has any of that got to do with anything, seriously?

What Thomas proved with two good wins over credible opponents was that he was a very real Threat to the Holmes of THAT time, the one who was obviously well and truly declined. He was having great difficulty defeating fighters well below the level of Thomas.

What Holmes proved was that he was no longer going to fight anyone that resembled a threat. He basically told us he would do just that, and then absolutely proved it beyond doubt.

The IBF weren't going to rain on his grand parade, he helped give them the little credibility they had at the time by wearing their belt for them.

At what stage does someone have to fight someone half credible before they lose their reigning champ privileges.

Could you imagine Hagler fighting mugs for his last three years? I'm a Hagler critic but the guy took on all and sundrey right to the very end, as could reasonably be expected of such an ATG and others.