Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BlackCloud, Oct 18, 2020.
C'mon maaaan! Joe Louis was 137 years old!
You can actually make an argument for him for guys in the 175-190 range. Bare minimum he's top 5 in that weight range and I don't see too many people objecting.
He just doesn't have enough true heavyweights on his resume to back up that claim. Very, very few men over 6 feet and even fewer who were over 200+ lbs (if i recall correctly Louis was literally the only one). Bottom line you can't say weight matters in one breath then ignore huge 30-40 pound weight differences in the next breath and assume Rocky has the same success. We just don't have enough info. Similarly, for all we know Floyd could successfully beat 168 pound fighters but that's a big assumption to favor him over the best of that division when we barely even saw him at 154 (i think only 3 opponents at that weight) and none whatsoever at 160. A journeyman or C level fighter is one thing, but an elite opponent who is also taller, stronger, and more athletic while having a big weight advantage brings tons of X factors that usually takes miracles to overcome.
How do you know it was the best version of Frazier?
Marciano was either 11-0 or 12-0 against men 200 plus all won by KO. Not a lot of men but Louis wasn’t the only one. Savold Cockell Schkohr Wilson Louis were probably the best fighters he beat that were over 200. Is it proof he could beat everyone? No. It is proof he would lose? No. Think at the least it says he can hang.
tbh, I thought he was a better poster than yourself whom I think of as the lowest of the low. At least he TRIED to bring up arguments to support his stance, no matter how laughably uncoherent and idiotic they were. That's more than I can say for you. YOU are the only person out of 52 people who have voted or commented on the thread to say Marciano was the #1 H2H heavyweight yet refuse to state why or engage with the vast majority (52 to be exact) who's opinions directly contradict yours'. Similarly, you also infamously spout the same non-sense that nobody in the past, present or future would've stood a chance against him. Yet when called on this outrageous stance by myself and others, you refuse to engage in a debate because you know you'll expose yourself as the imbecile you are. The mark of a true coward.
@choklab I noticed you haven't participated in this thread. Keen to hear your thoughts!
Schkor was coming off of a brutal 1st round KO loss and was by no means an elite opponent. He retired not long after.
Savold was also coming off a brutal KO loss and wasn't exactly durable having been stopped 12x. He retired right after the Rocky fight having fought in more than 140 bouts and 36 years old, which shows that he was a heavily shopworn opponent. Whatever world class skill and athleticism he may have had was obviously eroded by that point.
Cokkel was a chubby feather fisted 5'11 guy also at the end of his career and had been stopped 9x. Yes he was technically ranked #2 but it's pretty obvious he wasn't a particularly durable guy and in fact moved up from light heavy, so not a real bona fide heavyweight opponent and that explains why he looked so chunky.
No need to elaborate on how past it Joe Louis was. Gunshy and his legs and power pretty much gone.
So I stand by what I said. We don't have enough data to really say how he'd do against an elite, prime (keyword here, men in their late 30's who would retire in their next fight don't count) opponent over 200 lbs. None of the modern sized guys he beat were very durable even by his own eras standards and coming off brutal losses. That is simply a fact.
And setting the bar to just 6 ft and 200 lbs is generous since the average ranked guy in the division today is at least 6'3 and 230+. It's literally no different from claiming Mayweather could beat super middleweights and light heavies. You can cop out and say "we don't know if he could, we don't know if he couldn't" but if you think it's completely reasonable to argue for Marciano overcoming 30-40+ lbs then you must think it's reasonable to think Mayweather could beat opponents 30-40+ lbs even though he never did.
LOL you war mongering bastard!
It's very telling when Don Cockell, Johnny Schkor, etc are the best you can come up with, when making this argument that Marciano can "hang" with the average heavy.
Louis had enough in the tank to be on a several fight win streak against ranked men. Despite Marcianos detractors That was an excellent win. Cockell also was on a nice streak and beat a lot more contenders then most HWs today do to get a shot (think it was Lastarza Matthews Farr Marshall were his best wins). Not a modern heavy for sure but still out weighed Marciano by almost 20 pounds. I never said they were elite except Louis who despite his detractors was still elite. The rest some ranged from mediocre to good. The point was that he did in fact beat men whom were decent over 200 and he knocked them all out . In reality how many “elite” shws are there? Very few.
Merely stating a fact that he knocked everyone he met out over 200. I don’t know how that would hurt his argument to compete with men of thag weight because it certainly doesn’t. Sounds more like it hurts your bottom line.
its the best argument that can be made, because it’s grounded in reality. Rocky didn’t go .500 against people over 200, he batted 1000. What more can you ask for from someone making the argument that he can hang with the average heavyweight?
Ok let's be generous and give him Cokkel and Louis. That's still only 2 wins and they still weren't very big even by 70's standards. Louis was gunshy and didn't throw his right hand a lot. His hand speed and legs were gone. He retired right after this bout and was middle aged/super shopworn in boxing years. Cokkel as I mentioned wasn't a particularly difficult man to stop with 9 KO losses so knocking him out doesn't mean much even if he had a good ranking. You know this, so why are you being facetious? His resume against modern sized guys is extremely thin.
You think there have been "very few" elite SHW's since Marciano's retirement? Well again, if we're being generous and setting the bar down to 6ft and just over 200 lbs, we've had:
-Sonny Liston 6'1 215-220 lbs champ
-Ernie Terrell 6'6 220 lbs WBA champ
-Muhammad Ali 6'3 212-224 lbs gold medalist 3x champ
-Ken Norton 6'3 208-220 lbs
-George Foreman 6'4 217-260 lbs gold medalist, 2x champ oldest HW champ
-Larry Holmes 6'3 209-220 lbs champion with 20 title defenses
-Tim Witherspoon 6'3 219 lbs 2x champ
-Buster Douglas 6'4 230 lbs champ
-Evander Holyfield 6'2 210-217 lbs 4x champ
-Riddick Bowe 6'5 246 pound champ
-Lennox Lewis 6'5 240 pound gold medalist 3x champ
-Vitali Klitschko 6'7 2x champ honored with champion emeritus status
-Wladmir Klitschko 6'6 gold medalist champ with a huge reign and 20 defenses
-Anthony Joshua 6'6 240+ gold medalist and 2x champ with multiple defenses over ranked opponents
-Tyson Fury 6'8 260+ lbs 2x champion
That's 15 fighters even after I've left out noteworthy belt holders/1 x champs such as Tubbs, Bruno, Page, etc or skilled strong fighters who never became champ such as Tua, Povetkin etc since I knew you'd nitpick. 15 is more than just "a few". Even some of the lower tier Super heavies would not be a walk in the park as Rocky is still giving up 20-40 lbs against several of them, not to mention height and technique. The majority of them would not be shopworn and coming off brutal KO losses like Savold or Schkor.
I'll ask for the 3rd time now, do you think it's unreasonable to suggest Mayweather could beat 168-175 pound fighters such as Andre Ward, Carl Froch, Chris Eubank, James Toney, Julian Jackson, Michael Spinks, Muhammad Qawi, or Roy Jones h2h? I want a yes or no answer.
Because the "average" heavyweight nowadays isn't a chubby guy blowing up from light heavy like Cokkel or a gunshy shopworn fighter like Louis who had been in over 100 bouts/exhibitions/+countless sparring matches and tons of wear and tear. So if those are the best examples you can give to prove Marciano could "hang" with guys 20-40 lbs heavier who are also in their prime and not coming off brutal KO losses it isn't the most convincing resume.
What more we could ask for is fighting a guy who had a pulse who wasn't a barroom brawler, string bean, or shopworn light heavies which seems to be the vast majority of Rocky's opponents. It is not his fault since he beat everyone worth fighting in his era and credit to him for that, but he's not the one claiming he could knockout Riddick Bowe for instance. His fans are. I don't think its harsh or unreasonable to be skeptical when he literally not once stepped in the ring with anyone who even remotely had that combination of size and skill. It's not like Rocky was some defensive wizard or speed demon to make up for the huge difference in mass, he was an aggressive high stamina heavy handed pressure fighter with holes in his defense. You said you've boxed before yet when someone brings this up, people like you act like it's no big deal and Rocky just "finds a way".