Is Mike Tyson a top 10 HW?

No way. Ali already had Parkinsons. He had been washed up for years. Holmes lost to Tyson and then retired for 3 years and 3 months. He came back and schooled undefeated Ray Mercer at the age of 42. Imagine if Holmes had fought anyone other than Tyson in 1988. No one other than Tyson could've beaten Holmes like that. And Holmes looked pretty good in his previous fight (Spinks II). Holmes almost beat Oliver McCall at the age of 45. McCall was ranked as the 2nd best heavyweight in the world and he was the WBC champ. Holmes was still a solid win when Tyson beat him. Ali should've been nowhere near a ring. How many wars had Ali been in during the 70s? How about Holmes? Ali became an undisputed champion at the age of 22. Holmes won a world title at age 29. Ali had a lot more wear and tear than Holmes. Not really comparable. Ali vs Holmes has no historical significance. It's just a sad sight.

Why not Spinks? Didn't Spinks beat Holmes? Tyson was a 3.5-1 favorite against Spinks (as the undisputed champion). Tyson had already beaten Berbick, Bonecrusher, Tucker, Thomas, Tubbs, Holmes, and Biggs.

Tyson was a 6-1 favorite against Thomas. Tyson had only beaten Berbick and Bonecrusher yet. Tyson was an 8-1 favorite against Holmes.

Clearly, Spinks was seen a legitimate threat. With all this revisionist bs, people act like Spinks was nothing. Then they go ahead and rate Tunney as a great heavyweight. Tunney beat Dempsey twice, Spinks beat Holmes twice. Tunney was more impressive in those fights. Because Dempsey was washed up, coming off a 3 year layoff. Dempsey didn't have a size advantage over Tunney. Holmes had a 5" reach advantage and he was also 22 lbs heavier than Spinks. Spinks was a greater light heavyweight than Tunney was. Holmes was a far more skilled fighter than Dempsey and he was the greater fighter as well. Spinks fought Holmes in his first fight at HW and beat him. Tyson took Spinks out in 90 seconds.

Pinklon Thomas wasn't a great fighter. He had the skills of a great heavyweight but not the accomplishments. He was one of Tyson's biggest wins for sure, not the biggest (Spinks>Holmes>Thomas). His performance against Tim Witherspoon speaks for itself. Who outboxed Witherspoon like that? Even Holmes couldn't do it and that was a relatively inexperienced Witherspoon. And Pinklon KO'd Mike Weaver in his next fight. He then lost to Berbick in a close fight, upsets happen and Berbick was no bum. Tyson dominated Pinklon and put an end to his career.

"one could say Thomas was a great example of miserably failed potential". Couldn't we say the same of Riddick Bowe? Thomas had a short peak but so did Mike. Pinklon was an excellent fighter for that short period. So were Tucker, Tubbs, Page, Douglas. Longevity has nothing to do with brilliance. A lot of skilled fighters didn't even challenge for a world title. Pinklon fought for a world title, won it, and defended it.

 

Spinks was scared. Was Tyson supposed to give him a motivational speech or some shitt? This is a great start lol.

Holmes fought Berbick and Bonecrusher when they were fringe contenders. Tyson beat them at their best when they were defending champions. Berbick was coming off a win over Pinklon Thomas. Bonecrusher held 1st round KOs over Witherspoon and Weaver. Tyson beat Smith, Berbick, and Spinks like no one else.

If you think Briggs beat Foreman, then Spinks beat Holmes in the second fight. Foreman 8-4 btw.

Timeline bruh. When Tyson beat Ruddock, he was #3 HW in the world. Morrison beat him 4 years later when Ruddock was washed up. Ruddock fought just once in the 2 years and 6 months before the Morrison fight and it was against a nobody. There's plenty of fighters that could have stopped that Ruddock including Tyson from '96.

Yes, Witherspoon beat Tubbs and Bruno before Tyson. He never KO'd Smith, he beat him by decision. You're twisting things here. You said that Morrison stopped Ruddock faster than Tyson. You then said that Witherspoon beat Tubbs and Bruno before Tyson and he stopped Smith, which Tyson couldn't do. You're literally picking things Tyson didn't do. I can do the exact same. Tyson beat Ruddock before Lewis and Morrison. He didn't stop him faster because that was the best version of Ruddock. He stopped Tubbs in the 2nd round (Tim won by decision) and Bruno in 5th round (Tim stopped him in 11th). Tim beat Smith by decision, same as Tyson. Difference is, Smith was ranked #9 when Tim beat him and #2 (WBA champ) when Tyson beat him. And Smith had just avenged his loss to Witherspoon by a 1st round KO.

Ok. Tim gets KO'd by Smith in the 1st round. He then beat a fighter who was 7-7. In his next fight, he got a somewhat controversial decision over a nobody. How was he in a position to get a shot at the undisputed champion?

I like Witherspoon and I think he was a highly skilled fighter but I don't believe Tyson ducked him. Tubbs was no bum, he was a crafty fighter as well. He looked horrible against Witherspoon the same way Witherspoon looked horrible against Smith.

How do you measure addiction? How do you know Thomas had a worse drug problem than Tyson?

Is there any proof that Tucker hurt his right hand in the first round? I am not really interested in opinions. I can give you exact timestamps of Tucker throwing straight rights and right uppercuts after the first round.

Jesus. Have you seen the video of Tyson crying before an amateur fight? And Teddy is talking him through it. You're literally pulling out every excuse you've ever heard. This is a ****in buffet.

6-4 Tyson. You brought up adversity. How about this fight? It was 5-4 for Tyson going into the last round. If Tillis won the round, it would've been a draw. Can you please go and watch the last 10 seconds of this fight. That's how a champion finishes a fight. This is a 19 year old Tyson. Do you know how important this fight was for Tillis? If you hear the commentary for this fight, they are talking to Tillis' manager and he said that if Tillis lost, he'd need a new manager lol (brutal). I'm sure Tillis wanted to win because he tried. Tyson had only been a pro for 14 months at the time. He fought a veteran and learned from this fight. Same way Ali learned from Jones fight, Bowe from Tubbs/Biggs fights, Wladimir from Purrity/Sanders fights etc.

How much did Tubbs weigh against Tyson? 238 lbs. How much did Tubbs weigh against Witherspoon? 244 lbs. Tyson stopped Tubbs in the second round.

What names did I leave off? I was only talking about the contenders.

Did you work for Team Tyson? Where you getting all this stuff from? Tyson didn't wanna fight a guy who got outboxed by Marion Wilson and Jesse Ferguson. The guy who couldn't keep up with Damiani.

Why did Liston quit when he was getting whooped? Liston and Foreman (prime) were front runners too. How many times did Tyson face adversity in his prime? Tillis, Douglas, Ruddock. I think that's about it. He overcame adversity against Tillis and beat him. He didn't quit against Douglas. He tried to win. How did he floor Douglas in the 8th? After getting beaten for the first 5 rounds, Tyson did his best work in rounds 6,7,8 and arguably won all 3. He should have prepared better, that's his own fault. Douglas was unreal in that fight. Did Tyson not overcome adversity against Ruddock? Who finished stronger in that fight? So much for being a 6 round fighter. Not everyone is a Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali.

I already addressed the Morrison/Ruddock fight. Pinklon Thomas was washed up when he fought Morrison, as you acknowledged (don't understand why you mentioned it then). Thomas fought Morrison almost 4 years after Tyson. During that period Thomas went 1-3 (not including the Tyson fight). His only win came against a fighter who was 12-7.

Tyson fought plenty of good punchers in his career. Bonecrusher, Thomas, Tucker, Bruno, Williams, Ruddock, Stewart, Golota, Lewis. You're acting like Tyson ducked anyone who could punch.

How was Tua's win over Maskaev significant? Maskaev was KOd by McCall in the 1st round when he was 6-0. He had 4 more fights against cans and then he fought Tua. Funny thing is, Maskaev still outboxed Tua for 10 rounds before Tua got to him. Tua was ranked #8 and Maskaev was a nobody. Maskaev won a world title 9 years later. Tua's win is pretty insignificant.

Tyson eats one left hook while trading like an idiot and he has been exposed. Bruno lost every round of that fight.

Douglas beat Tyson. Moorer beat Holyfield. McCall and Rahman beat Lewis. Purrity/Sanders/Brewster beat Wladimir. Jimmy Young beat Foreman. Willard beat Johnson. Upsets happen. Douglas boxed beautifully in that fight.

He didn't line up Seldon, Mathis, Bruno for title defences. Do some research man. Seldon and Bruno were champions, Tyson was the challenger. Buster Mathis and McNeeley were tune up fights.

Why didn't Lennox Lewis fight Bowe, Tyson, Moorer, Foreman, Ike, Tua during the 90s. Lewis was in his prime and didn't fight them. Why didn't Bowe fight Moorer, Tyson, Foreman, Lewis, Ike, Tua? Tyson was in it for the money in the 90s.

Tyson beat Ruddock (#3 both times), Seldon (#6) and Bruno (#7). That's 4 wins over top 10. Moorer has one win over a top 10 HW (Holyfield). Foreman has one win over a top 10 HW in his 2nd career (Moorer). Bowe holds 5 wins over top 10 HWs in his entire career (2x Holy, Gonzalez, Hide, Golota II).

Lost to Holyfield after a 4 year layoff. Had another 18 month layoff after Holyfield II. After reading your comment, I'm sure you consider Lewis-Tyson a legacy fight as well. Because Tyson lost. lol

Do you think Holyfield was a dirty fighter tho? I've heard people talk about this Evan Fields. And what about those headbutts Tyson was talking about? Is it worth mentioning? Or do we just talk about Tucker breaking his hand, terrified Spinks, Bruno's therapy sessions, Thomas loving his heroin, Tubbs loving his KFC etc. It is what it is. Please don't reply.

 

I think Tyson is a horrible matchup for Frazier. Frazier was a very tough fighter but he didn't have the best chin. He would get outboxed by Tyson imo. Tyson had a tremendous jab and methodical head movement. Frazier was a great body puncher but so was Tyson. Tyson proved to be more durable as well. Tyson has speed, technique, and power over Frazier. Frazier got heart and stamina. Tyson was also a great counter-puncher. Frazier is a bad matchup for out-boxers who rely on straight punches, so is Tyson tbf. But when they come head to head, Tyson can dish it out better and take it better than Frazier. Just my opinion.

I believe Liston is overrated. He had a great jab but he was slow and didn't have great defence. His resume is nothing special. I don't rate Liston over Tyson.

Foreman can be rated above Tyson. Foreman beat Joe Frazier and Ken Norton in his first career. He beat Michael Moorer in his second career. 3 great wins. Foreman destroyed Frazier and Norton. He was getting outboxed by Moorer before he got the KO. I think Tyson's wins over Tucker, Tubbs, and Thomas are more impressive than the Moorer win. These guys were legit heavyweights and good fighters. Tyson beat them decisively.

Tyson can never match the Frazier win. The second Frazier win is pretty meaningless imo. We already know Foreman had his number. It's like Ali beating Liston twice. Or Liston beating Patterson twice. We got the message the first time.

I think a win over Spinks or Holmes is better than Norton. Everyone knows Norton didn't handle punchers well. Holmes and Spinks were supposed to be tougher matchups for Tyson. Guys with good movement and a jab. Even if Holmes was old, he's a much greater fighter than Norton was. Norton was the same height as Foreman and weighed 12 lbs less. Holmes had a 10" reach advantage and 10 lbs on Tyson.

Foreman lost a fight he was supposed to win and so did Tyson. Foreman was also outboxed by Young when he was in his prime. Tyson was a far more dominant champion. 2 defences vs 9 defences. And Tyson never defended against a Jose Roman. Who was the more skilled fighter? I think most would agree that Tyson was the better boxer. People talk about Tyson's short peak. Tyson's reign lasted 3 years and 3 months. Foreman was on top for 1 year and 9 months.

I hate to do this but Foreman's comeback isn't what people make it out to be. How was Foreman's 2nd career better than Holmes?

Holmes schooled Mercer. Mercer wasn't a skilled boxer but he still went on to give Holyfield a tough fight and arguably beat Lewis or deserved a draw. That's the same merit we use when we judge the Moorer win. It's a great win because Moorer beat Holyfield. Mercer's best win is Morrison though. He didn't beat Holyfield/Lewis but gave them a much harder fight even though he fought them years after Holmes. Holmes' performance against Holyfield was better than Foreman's. Holyfield landed 247/538 (46%) and Holmes 207/413 (50%). Holmes almost beat McCall when he was 45. I can find 6 rounds for Holmes. He didn't have that 1 punch power like Foreman so he had to outbox everyone. Foreman arguably lost to Alex Stewart. He was clearly outboxed by Morrison and Holyfield. He was also outboxed by Schulz. He deserved a win over Briggs but the only reason we know Briggs is because of that decision. If Foreman had gotten the decision, no one would care about that win. Briggs would remain a nobody. Holmes beat Nielsen at the age of 47. No one outclassed Holmes even when he was in his 40s. Btw, Holmes and Foreman are the same age.

I don't think Foreman's comeback gives him an edge over Tyson. I have no problem with anyone placing Foreman over Tyson but Tyson can also be ranked above Foreman. Tyson was the more dominant champion and more skilled fighter.

 

Frazier is also 1-2 against Ali. He is 0-2 against Foreman. He's 1-4 against great fighters. Who else did Frazier beat though? Other than Ali coming off a lengthy layoff. He beat Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Bugner, Chuvalo. Frazier struggled against Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis. He unified the titles against Ellis. You know who battered Ellis before Frazier? Floyd Patterson at the age of 33. Ellis was a blown up middleweight but he was a good boxer. Frazier defended his titles 4 times- Foster, Ali, Daniels, Stander. Only legit defence was Ali. Foster was a LHW. He didn't move up and prove himself at HW like Spinks, Tunney, or Charles. Foster lost to almost every decent heavyweight he fought (Terrell, Jones, Mina, Frazier, Ali). Frazier's not a great head to head fighter either imo.

Jack Johnson can't be rated over Tyson. Who did Jack Johnson beat? Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, Sam McVea, and Tommy Burns.

Johnson beat Sam McVea 3 times. Sam was 6-0, 8-1, 8-2 when Jack beat him. Jack had 20 fights and he had been a pro for over 5 years the first time he fought Sam. McVea was an inexperienced fighter at the time. Sam was 8-3 the last time he fought Johnson and he lost to Johnson in the first 12 months of his career. Over the next 8 years, he went 46-3-4.

Johnson beat Jeannette 5 times. 2 wins were 3 rounders. 2 wins were 6 rounds. 1 win was a legit 15 round fight. You know what Joe's record was when this rivalry ended? 10-10. Joe was 0-3, 7-5, 9-6, 9-7, 10-9 when Johnson beat him. Johnson had 34 fights and he had been a pro 7½ years the first time he fought Joe who was 0-3 and 6 months into his career. All the Johnson-Jeannette fights took place within the first 2 years of Joe's career. Joe was another green fighter. Jeannette went 93-10 over the next 10 years.

Johnson beat Sam Langford once. Johnson weighed 185. Langford weighed 156. People talk about Tyson's win over a blown up LHW. Wtf is this?

Tommy Burns wasn't exactly a great fighter. Burns weighed 168. Johnson weighed 194. Again, this is just a mismatch. I won't discuss the Jeffries/Fitzsimmons fights.

Once Johnson became a champion, Langford/McVea/Jeannette were in their primes. Johnson refused to fight them. He drew the color line once he became the first black heavyweight champion. I can't rate Johnson over Tyson. He was a great fighter but a horrible champion.