Is Mike Tyson greater than Lennox Lewis on the all time greatest heavyweight ranking?

mark ant · Jan 22, 2019

ironchamp said: ↑

I rate fighters based on 5 Criteria:

1) Tenure as Champion
2) Quality of Opposition
3) Notable Losses/Omissions
4) Ability as a Fighter
5) Historical Significance

1) Mike Tyson's reign as THE MAN from 1986-1990 was easily one of the more ruthless and dominant reigns in Heavyweight history. Not only did he unify the belts one by one eliminating any claimants to the throne, but he also cleaned out the division by beating even the former champions, all in dominant fashion mind you, to eliminate any doubt as to who the man was. He recorded 9 consecutive title defenses against the top fighters of the division during his first run and then 10 years after he won the title WBC title, he recaptured it again in dominant fashion while attempting to reunify the belts again. He amassed an impressive overall 12-4 record in title fights. The greatest achievement of his reign was that it restored order in the division via a consolidation of the titles.

Lewis's reign is a little bit different. For starters he technically won his first title in a courtroom, so his first run as WBC Champion didn't give him the type of credibility that winning the title in the ring in dominant fashion usually would have. Additionally in 1993/94 Lewis wasn't really considered THE MAN; Holyfield and Bowe held that distinction while Lennox remained a top fighter and paper champ. Before he was able to unify, he loses his WBC title to an unheralded Oliver McCall only to regain it after 3 years against McCall in an interim title fight where McCall seemed to be having nervous breakdown. So for all intents and purposes Lewis's reign as THE MAN was from 1999-2003, before that he was a top contender with a belt who was second fiddle to Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield respectively. He was able to amass an impressive 15-2-1 (should really be 16-2) record in title fights as a result of his fragmented title reigns. Unlike Tyson, Lewis never bothered to keep the titles intact and would happy sell (IBF Belt to Chris Byrd) or relinquish (WBA Belt to John Ruiz) a belt if he couldn't be bothered to defend his titles.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

2) This is a topic which I think requires a bit more attention; so I took the liberty of listing both fighters top 15 names on their resume and who they were at the time they fought.

Mike Tyson TOP 15 NAMES:

1) Micheal Spinks (Undefeated Lineal Champion)
2) Tony Tucker (Undefeated IBF Champion)
3) Razor Ruddock (#2 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies) X 2
4) Pinklon Thomas (Fmr WBC champ/#1 Rank WBC)
5) Larry Holmes (Fmr Lineal Champion)
6) Bonecrusher Smith (WBA Champion)
7) Frank Bruno (#2 Ranked All 3 Bodies/WBC Champ) X 2
8) Trevor Berbick (WBC Champion)
9) Tony Tubbs (#2 Ranked All 3 Bodies + Fmr WBA Champ)
10) Carl Williams (#1 Ranked IBF)
11) Andrew Golota (#9 Ranked Contender WBC)
12) Frans Botha (#1 Ranked IBF Contender + Fmr IBF Champ)
13) Tyrell Biggs (#1 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies)
14) Bruce Seldon (WBA Champion)
15) Alex Stewart (#3 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies)

Lennox Lewis TOP 15 NAMES:

1. Vitali Klitschko (#1 Ranked Conteder WBA/WBC)
2. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
3. Evander Holyfield (WBA/IBF Champion + Fmr Lineal Undisputed Champion)
4. Mike Tyson (#1 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr Lineal Undisputed Champion)
5. Ray Mercer
6. Tommy Morrison (#2 Ranked Contender WBC)
7. David Tua (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
8. Andrew Golota (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
9. Frans Botha (#9 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr IBF Champ)
10. Frank Bruno (#5 Ranked Contender All 3 bodies)
11. Shannon Briggs (Lineal Titlist)
12. Micheal Grant (#2 Ranked Contender WBC/IBF)
13. Tony Tucker (#1 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr IBF Champ)
14. Hasim Rahman (Lineal Champion)
15. Oliver McCall (Fmr WBC Champion)

When you factor in who they were at the time, the physical condition and stage of their careers a lot of the flash from Lewis's resume evaporates when you consider that Holyfield, Tyson, Morrison were pretty shopworn.

ADVANTAGE: EVEN

3. Tyson lost to Douglas, Holyfield 2X, Lewis, Williams and McBride. Tyson was a shell in the Lewis fight and completely shot against Williams and McBride.Tyson also never avenged a loss, while some can claim that he never had an opportunity with Douglas, he did have one with Holyfield that didn't work out. To be fair Lewis offered him a rematch which, Tyson declined on the basis that he was not in the right condition to take on the challenge. In terms of omissions, Tyson didn't really have those issues, with the exception of Riddick Bowe, Tyson fought everyone he was expected to fight during his career.

Lewis on other hand has McCall and Rahman; fighter's who with all due respect have no business in the win column against Lewis. To be fair he did avenge each of them and has to date beaten every man he's faced.

In terms of omissions? Lewis had a tendency to price himself out of fights and claim he's being ducked but when he's offered a lucrative rematch he just can't be bothered. He shoulder's the blame with Bowe, he takes the blame for a Tyson fight not taking place in 1996/1997, he takes the blame for not accepting the $20 million dollar offer from Ray Mercer who wanted a rematch and finally the Vitaly rematch that he turned down while pursuing Kirk Johnson before deciding to scrap it altogether and retire.

Either way for the purposes of this comparison it's totally immaterial.

ADVANTAGE: LEWIS

4. This is probably the most subjective criterion. They have two completely different styles; both incredibly skilled in their own way. At one point Mike Tyson was #1 p4p (1987-89) above Chavez, Whitaker, Nunn, Hagler and Duran. There has never been a Heavyweight Champion past or present with a better combination of both speed and power. There was a time where he appeared to have no flaws; always in perfect balance, was rarely hit with punches, he could end the fight with 1 punch on either hand and he could out jab taller fighters while outworking them over 12 to a wide decision. You had to beat the hell out of him to beat him. I rate him #2 on the H2H list right behind Muhammad Ali
but ahead of Louis, Holmes and Foreman.

For all the flack that Lewis gets about his chin, he fought an awful lot of punchers and manged to stay upright all but 2 times. Lewis was master technician in his own right with a top 5 Heavyweight jab and a monster right hand. He would likely be favored over the majority of Heavyweights past or present. Head to Head I have him at #6 behind Ali, Tyson, Holmes, Louis and Foreman. I will add that it's a bit concerning that he can get short circuited not once but twice by average fighters who aren't even considered dangerous punchers.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

5. Mike Tyson was the youngest ever Heavyweight Champion, a record that remains unbroken more than 30 years later. He is unequivocally the benchmark fighter of his generation and has transcended the sport as an iconic public figure who was a first ballot HOF.

Lewis joins the elite club of being a 3 time Heavyweight Champion who has beaten every man he's faced and like Tunney and Marciano joins the elite club of retiring on top while champion.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

My LIST:

TOP 25 ATG HW LIST

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Lennox Lewis
8. George Foreman
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Joe Frazier

11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Harry Wills
16. Jim Jeffries
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Floyd Patterson
19. Riddick Bowe
20. Vitaly Klitschko

21. Jersey Joe Walcott
22. Gene Tunney
23. John Sullivan
24. Ken Norton
25. James Corbett
Click to expand...

Curry and Hagler were the top two rated P4P fighters in 1987 until they both got beat and Tyson took over.

mark ant · Jan 22, 2019

Flash24 said: ↑

So What's the excuse for the Rahman KO loss? Steward had trained Lewis for almost 6yrs when that happened.
Click to expand...

He fought much better in the rematch, the combo that finished Rahman was nice.

mark ant · Jan 22, 2019

ironchamp said: ↑

I rate fighters based on 5 Criteria:

1) Tenure as Champion
2) Quality of Opposition
3) Notable Losses/Omissions
4) Ability as a Fighter
5) Historical Significance

1) Mike Tyson's reign as THE MAN from 1986-1990 was easily one of the more ruthless and dominant reigns in Heavyweight history. Not only did he unify the belts one by one eliminating any claimants to the throne, but he also cleaned out the division by beating even the former champions, all in dominant fashion mind you, to eliminate any doubt as to who the man was. He recorded 9 consecutive title defenses against the top fighters of the division during his first run and then 10 years after he won the title WBC title, he recaptured it again in dominant fashion while attempting to reunify the belts again. He amassed an impressive overall 12-4 record in title fights. The greatest achievement of his reign was that it restored order in the division via a consolidation of the titles.

Lewis's reign is a little bit different. For starters he technically won his first title in a courtroom, so his first run as WBC Champion didn't give him the type of credibility that winning the title in the ring in dominant fashion usually would have. Additionally in 1993/94 Lewis wasn't really considered THE MAN; Holyfield and Bowe held that distinction while Lennox remained a top fighter and paper champ. Before he was able to unify, he loses his WBC title to an unheralded Oliver McCall only to regain it after 3 years against McCall in an interim title fight where McCall seemed to be having nervous breakdown. So for all intents and purposes Lewis's reign as THE MAN was from 1999-2003, before that he was a top contender with a belt who was second fiddle to Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield respectively. He was able to amass an impressive 15-2-1 (should really be 16-2) record in title fights as a result of his fragmented title reigns. Unlike Tyson, Lewis never bothered to keep the titles intact and would happy sell (IBF Belt to Chris Byrd) or relinquish (WBA Belt to John Ruiz) a belt if he couldn't be bothered to defend his titles.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

2) This is a topic which I think requires a bit more attention; so I took the liberty of listing both fighters top 15 names on their resume and who they were at the time they fought.

Mike Tyson TOP 15 NAMES:

1) Micheal Spinks (Undefeated Lineal Champion)
2) Tony Tucker (Undefeated IBF Champion)
3) Razor Ruddock (#2 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies) X 2
4) Pinklon Thomas (Fmr WBC champ/#1 Rank WBC)
5) Larry Holmes (Fmr Lineal Champion)
6) Bonecrusher Smith (WBA Champion)
7) Frank Bruno (#2 Ranked All 3 Bodies/WBC Champ) X 2
8) Trevor Berbick (WBC Champion)
9) Tony Tubbs (#2 Ranked All 3 Bodies + Fmr WBA Champ)
10) Carl Williams (#1 Ranked IBF)
11) Andrew Golota (#9 Ranked Contender WBC)
12) Frans Botha (#1 Ranked IBF Contender + Fmr IBF Champ)
13) Tyrell Biggs (#1 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies)
14) Bruce Seldon (WBA Champion)
15) Alex Stewart (#3 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies)

Lennox Lewis TOP 15 NAMES:

1. Vitali Klitschko (#1 Ranked Conteder WBA/WBC)
2. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
3. Evander Holyfield (WBA/IBF Champion + Fmr Lineal Undisputed Champion)
4. Mike Tyson (#1 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr Lineal Undisputed Champion)
5. Ray Mercer
6. Tommy Morrison (#2 Ranked Contender WBC)
7. David Tua (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
8. Andrew Golota (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
9. Frans Botha (#9 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr IBF Champ)
10. Frank Bruno (#5 Ranked Contender All 3 bodies)
11. Shannon Briggs (Lineal Titlist)
12. Micheal Grant (#2 Ranked Contender WBC/IBF)
13. Tony Tucker (#1 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr IBF Champ)
14. Hasim Rahman (Lineal Champion)
15. Oliver McCall (Fmr WBC Champion)

When you factor in who they were at the time, the physical condition and stage of their careers a lot of the flash from Lewis's resume evaporates when you consider that Holyfield, Tyson, Morrison were pretty shopworn.

ADVANTAGE: EVEN

3. Tyson lost to Douglas, Holyfield 2X, Lewis, Williams and McBride. Tyson was a shell in the Lewis fight and completely shot against Williams and McBride.Tyson also never avenged a loss, while some can claim that he never had an opportunity with Douglas, he did have one with Holyfield that didn't work out. To be fair Lewis offered him a rematch which, Tyson declined on the basis that he was not in the right condition to take on the challenge. In terms of omissions, Tyson didn't really have those issues, with the exception of Riddick Bowe, Tyson fought everyone he was expected to fight during his career.

Lewis on other hand has McCall and Rahman; fighter's who with all due respect have no business in the win column against Lewis. To be fair he did avenge each of them and has to date beaten every man he's faced.

In terms of omissions? Lewis had a tendency to price himself out of fights and claim he's being ducked but when he's offered a lucrative rematch he just can't be bothered. He shoulder's the blame with Bowe, he takes the blame for a Tyson fight not taking place in 1996/1997, he takes the blame for not accepting the $20 million dollar offer from Ray Mercer who wanted a rematch and finally the Vitaly rematch that he turned down while pursuing Kirk Johnson before deciding to scrap it altogether and retire.

Either way for the purposes of this comparison it's totally immaterial.

ADVANTAGE: LEWIS

4. This is probably the most subjective criterion. They have two completely different styles; both incredibly skilled in their own way. At one point Mike Tyson was #1 p4p (1987-89) above Chavez, Whitaker, Nunn, Hagler and Duran. There has never been a Heavyweight Champion past or present with a better combination of both speed and power. There was a time where he appeared to have no flaws; always in perfect balance, was rarely hit with punches, he could end the fight with 1 punch on either hand and he could out jab taller fighters while outworking them over 12 to a wide decision. You had to beat the hell out of him to beat him. I rate him #2 on the H2H list right behind Muhammad Ali
but ahead of Louis, Holmes and Foreman.

For all the flack that Lewis gets about his chin, he fought an awful lot of punchers and manged to stay upright all but 2 times. Lewis was master technician in his own right with a top 5 Heavyweight jab and a monster right hand. He would likely be favored over the majority of Heavyweights past or present. Head to Head I have him at #6 behind Ali, Tyson, Holmes, Louis and Foreman. I will add that it's a bit concerning that he can get short circuited not once but twice by average fighters who aren't even considered dangerous punchers.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

5. Mike Tyson was the youngest ever Heavyweight Champion, a record that remains unbroken more than 30 years later. He is unequivocally the benchmark fighter of his generation and has transcended the sport as an iconic public figure who was a first ballot HOF.

Lewis joins the elite club of being a 3 time Heavyweight Champion who has beaten every man he's faced and like Tunney and Marciano joins the elite club of retiring on top while champion.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

My LIST:

TOP 25 ATG HW LIST

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Lennox Lewis
8. George Foreman
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Joe Frazier

11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Harry Wills
16. Jim Jeffries
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Floyd Patterson
19. Riddick Bowe
20. Vitaly Klitschko

21. Jersey Joe Walcott
22. Gene Tunney
23. John Sullivan
24. Ken Norton
25. James Corbett
Click to expand...

As the heavyweight division continued a transitional period, middleweight king Marvin Hagler was the face of the sport as ‘The Marvellous One’ demolished his way through all foes during the mid-80’s. Hagler’s list of victims included Duran and Thomas Hearns until Leonard’s spectacular comeback saw the title switch hands for the first time five years.

Leonard’s resurgence was brief, once again due to retirement, although there was a new king of the world crowned later in that year when the invincible ‘Iron’ Mike Tyson unified the heavyweight titles to become undisputed. I pasted this.

BlackCloud · Jan 22, 2019

mark ant said: ↑

As the heavyweight division continued a transitional period, middleweight king Marvin Hagler was the face of the sport as ‘The Marvellous One’ demolished his way through all foes during the mid-80’s. Hagler’s list of victims included Duran and Thomas Hearns until Leonard’s spectacular comeback saw the title switch hands for the first time five years.

Leonard’s resurgence was brief, once again due to retirement, although there was a new king of the world crowned later in that year when the invincible ‘Iron’ Mike Tyson unified the heavyweight titles to become undisputed.
Click to expand...

Lol, you copied and pasted that from here!
https://www.*****.net/2018/06/11/to...r-33-years-on-from-three-round-las-vegas-war/

Cheeky sod!

Damn, won't show link but if you type your post in Google, thats what turns up

Bronze Tiger · Jan 22, 2019

He is on my list

Saad54 · Jan 22, 2019

cuchulain said: ↑

Right on both counts !

Your incisive and insightful judgment on matters pugilistic is matched only by your biting wit and tolerant forbearance of certain fools who occasionally post here,
Click to expand...

You write like Don King talks.

Saad54 · Jan 22, 2019

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

I would had Holmes anywhere from 4-7 and usually closer to 4. There's Ali and Louis and then the rest for me. Over the years I've come to see Lewis as the man for #3 but he's a ways behind the top 2. Pretty sure a recent thread and poll in here for who is third behind Louis and Ali had Lewis winning by a substantial margin.

But it is pretty tight among those below Louis and Muhammad. So many variables.
Click to expand...

I would put Holmes above Lewis.

PhillyPhan69 · Jan 22, 2019

Saad54 said: ↑

I would put Holmes above Lewis.
Click to expand...

I would as well by a hair as evidenced that I rate them side by side on my 3-4 tier...but I think we are in the slight minority...I think if we did a thread and poll it would likely be 60-70 % for Lewis

Smokin Bert · Jan 22, 2019

I also rate Holmes above Lewis both in historical standing and H2H.

The Tyson vs Lewis debate is a tougher one. I do think that prime Tyson was more impressive and would beat Lewis H2H. But, Tyson's career was filled with more stumbles than Lewis'. So I can totally understand anyone who ranks Lewis higher. As long as it is not based on the results of the farce of a fight Lewis and Tyson actually had. Tyson was way too far gone for that fight to be used as an indicator of anything useful.

cuchulain · Jan 22, 2019

Saad54 said: ↑

You write like Don King talks.
Click to expand...

Me and Don, we're tight !

That mellifluous muthe*fuc*er got an abundance of eloquent expressiveness.

The dapper Don jus' oozes oratory, he's the personification of persuasiveness, loquacity brought to life !

archdeacon99 · Jan 22, 2019

Jel said: ↑

Lewis beating Tyson to me is about as impressive as Marciano beating Joe Louis. It would have meant a lot at a different time but didn't mean that much when it happened.
Click to expand...

Except Lewis was older than Tyson! How different would a prime Tyson have been against the style of Lewis?
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Gazelle Punch · Jan 22, 2019

I personally rate Lewis above Tyson but see no reason why it couldn’t be reversed. For some reason Tyson gets something no other fighter gets. He always gets the what if card as others don’t get it. Or the “if he” card. “If he” would have trained harder he would have been champ a lot longer. “What if” Cus didn’t die? Plenty of other champions and contenders get lazy once they’ve made a few bucks from boxing or change trainers. Tyson wasn’t the first and won’t be the last. If you ask me and Tyson from some interviews I’ve seen he only wanted to win the titles and claimed he didn’t particularly care to put in the work to defend that’s on him. But based on accomplishments Between the two I count work ethic and longevity so I’d give a slight edge to Lewis.

Jel · Jan 22, 2019

archdeacon99 said: ↑

Except Lewis was older than Tyson! How different would a prime Tyson have been against the style of Lewis?
Click to expand...

Hard to say, but age is relative in this case. Tyson was done as a force in the division by 25; Lewis was just getting started at that point. Tyson was totally shot at the point he met Lewis.

GOAT Primo Carnera · Jan 22, 2019

archdeacon99 said: ↑

Except Lewis was older than Tyson! How different would a prime Tyson have been against the style of Lewis?
This content is protected

Click to expand...

What a great vid!

Both guys on the left share the same problem compared to the guys on the right: Mass intertia Like putting Playback Speed on 0.75

On The Money · Jan 22, 2019

Only casuals would rate Tyson higher overall although h2h prime is a 50-50 fight.

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Is Mike Tyson greater than Lennox Lewis on the all time greatest heavyweight ranking?

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