Is Mike Tyson rated fairly?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by manbearpig, Nov 1, 2017.


  1. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    I have been thinking a lot about Mike Tyson over the past few weeks.

    With the benefit of reflection afforded by all the years passed since the man retired, is it now possible to rate him more fairly?

    I find the most common argument against his 'legacy', the one of him having a poor CV, to be quite weak upon reflection.
    He is definitely in the majority club when it comes to heavyweight champions. Outside of Muhammad Ali, there isn't anyone who can't have their list of scalps criticised and discredited.

    He defeated all the men of his era cleanly, in a time where most of the bouts were messy affairs with wins split between the rankings.

    His top tier wins are obviously Spinks and Holmes, in my view, with the Holmes win having retroactive value based on how he was able to continue to compete amongst the fighters who were relevant at the time.

    With Spinks, it appears to be a strange performance and outcome to what was hyped at the time as a near even fight.
    But I argue that other blowouts between regarded fighters don't have the same levels of scepticism levelled at them (Frazier v Foreman, Liston v Patterson, Louis v Schmeling 2) as this one does. Instead of giving Mike the credit, the general narrative seems to be one of downplaying the achievement.

    His next tier of wins include the likes of Bruno, Tubbs, Tucker, Smith, Thomas and Berbick. With the context of how fights between that lot went at the time Tyson was mowing through them (as I said, messy, usually close contests), they are a significant amount more impressive than they appear on first glance.

    I suggest this, as it shows how clearly above the competition Tyson showed himself to be. These were, for the most part, competently skilled fighters who would have been contenders in any other era.

    As a collection of wins, do they really compare that unfavourably to the likes of Joe Louis or Larry Holmes, or basically any heavyweight other than Ali?

    I argue that Mike achieved a comparable quality of record as Joe Louis, in a much more condensed time scale.

    Longevity and consistency are definitely important factors when ranking the prestige of a champion, but I don't see many other examples of long reigning, active champions, outside of Louis, Ali and Holmes.

    I think Mike Tyson, for his short, flawed career, deserves more credit for the decisive way in which he cleared out all contenders and became a definitive champion.

    Ali
    Louis
    Lewis
    Holmes
    TYSON
    Marciano
    Klitschko
    Frazier
    Holyfield
    Foreman
     
  2. Contro

    Contro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Here comes Wass1985.
    I think Mikes legacy is badly tarnished by the farce that is his post prison career. I think his legacy is slightly overrated because of his post prison career. Theoretically, if he had died right after Ruddock 2 he would have been alot better off in terms of legacy.

    He is probably slightly underrated H2H at his peak nowadays because people take the worst attributes he displayed after prison, lack of physical stamina lack of mental discipline etc and apply them to tyson before prison which imo is wrong because he never showed bad stamina or anything wrong with his fighting heart before prison.
     
  3. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    But wwhere dooyou put Richard Dunn?
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    Ali can be torn up too, trust me. There's guys on this forum that will dissect his resume like you won't believe.
     
  5. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Most definitely not. He's simultaneously the most overrated and underrated heavyweight in history. Almost no one asks the right questions in evaluating him, and even when they do I rarely see any intellectually honest attempt to follow the answers wherever they might lead. Tyson inspires more motivated reasoning* than almost any other fighter.
    Just a few basic questions I rarely see anyone make an earnest attempt to answer:

    On exactly what basis can it be concluded that his opposition consisted mainly of bums? How is this any more true of Tyson than any other champion?

    How much did he really decline from peak form, what exactly were the reasons for this, and most importantly, how do you know this (or at least have sound reason to believe it)?

    How solid are the stock excuses for his disappointing performances, and again, more importantly, what solid (rather than purely speculative) basis do you have for a firm belief one way or the other? For instance, what is the evidence, really, that Tony Tucker fought with a broken hand, or that Tyson didn't train seriously for the Douglas fight?

    Why did Tyson beat Bruno more quickly and decisively in 1995 than 1988?


    * [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning[/url]
     
    Bokaj likes this.
  6. Birmingham

    Birmingham Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Bruno showed even more fear in the second fight than he did in the first. Scared stiff big Frank was. I see it as this, For a very short period Tyson was an elite fighter capable of beating highly rated atg fighters that come before him.
     
    SluggerBrawler likes this.
  7. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You beat me to it you little fanatic you. No matter what, the record books show Tyson was knocked out by an average contender who whilst in the prime of his life.
     
  8. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    I don't think a bad loss totally negates all good work done prior (or after).
     
    Sting like a bean likes this.
  9. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Maybe, but that seems to be placing a lot of confidence in your ability to read fear from a television camera.
     
  10. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Douglas wasn't an average contender.
     
  11. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    It's a pretty fair argument to say that Buster Douglas was just an average contender in my opinion.

    I don't think a champion losing to an average contender who puts in a great performance should totally destoy the champions reputation though.
     
  12. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Average relative to whom?
     
  13. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    All other contenders obviously. He beat his peers and he lost to his peers. Just like other contenders.

    Contender doesn't equate to "bum".
    Contender is a ranked heavyweight. He isn't above average like I'd say Norton Is, or some people say Quarry is. He was about average.
     
    Wass1985 likes this.
  14. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    You realize you are now committed by definition to hold that Douglas was literally in the middle of this ranking?
     
  15. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    You'll have to expand mate, I don't follow your inference.