Is Roberto Duran overrated?

:huh

 

Imagine, boxer A (say, Ezzard Charles) ranked #1 for resume, and #12 for talent/potential, summing two criterias up, he can end up somewhere near #6 (although this is by no means an arithmetical operation). Or, vice versa, boxer B (say Roy Jones) ranked #1 talent-wise, but outside of Top 10 achievement-wise, but summing them up, he ends up inside Top 10.

 

Yes, but based on his resume, Roy Jones might very well place outside the top 75.

 

Even if he were involved into such things (hypothetically speaking), what positive effects could that have on him? Handspeed? It may only get worse with more muscles/weight. Stamina - ditto (more muscles require more oxygen), plus he has been known as a very-hard working athlete (he was jogging every day, playing basketball, etc). Strength - he doesn't depend on it that much. Power - he's not a big puncher naturally, his power originates in speed and unpredictability. Mobility - he's not running around the ring, he's using in and out moves mostly.

 

You think I couldn't rip apart, say, Ray Robinson's or Ezzard Charles', or Harry Greb's resumes? Unfortunately, for most people their resumes are more a set of famous names, than details of particular fights or conditions they took place in (such as how far from peak and just how good this or that opponent was, etc).

 

Steroids don't just bulk you up ... they can do a whole lot of things for a fighter and athlete. I think Roy is a big puncher naturally actually. I think him to be of the Mike Tyson mould in that he is naturally quite heavy handed, but mixed in with insane speed and explosion ... whilst I appreciate that this seems counterintuitive, it's just the nature of their fighting styles that makes one assume that they are wholly opposites as punchers.

It may well be the case that steroids helped him add the bulk for his transition up to heavyweight, or that steroids allowed him to train harder and for longer without the wear and tear that would come from that kind of training in its most natural unassisted format. Steroids can significantly shorten recovery time and as we discovered with Ben Johnson, steroids can make a well tuned athlete out of this world fast and explosive ... and Roy did indeed seem ... well ... out of this world fast and explosive.

I make no accusations, but please don't be so narrow minded to assume that adding weight is the only benefit that an athlete such as Roy may seek from the use of steroids.

 

No offense senya but your knowledge of what steroids do is incorrect....
Steroids dont necessarily just make you muscle bound or increase muscle mass immensely,it depends how you train with them,and your body type...Used in certain ways steroids can increase stamina,speed,reactions,agressiveness,punch resistance and decrease body fat while increasing strength....Jones' style was perfect for the benefits of steroids,and the guy got caught against richard hall...
Dont fall for the stereotype that every steroid user is super muscled or muscle bound,tennis players,cricketers,footballers and guys with relatively small mucle mass can still get great benefits from gear...

 

No, I just want to know if there was any reasoning to these before you came to your conclusion or if you reached your conclusion first and then based your reasoning around whom you preferred to watch.

For instance -- Roberto Duran's resume, while not P4P top ten in your estimation, was by far and wide better than that of Roy Jones. It is your primary reason to exlude him from your top 10. You then place Roy Jones at #4.

Then I have to conclude that you consider Roy to be several levels above Roberto Duran in boxing ability, that he's so far out of Roberto's league that Roy Jones not only makes up the difference in resume, but overtakes him by a big margin, at least as big as #11-#4.

After thinking this through, I arrived at the following.

 

Sometimes it takes a lot of balls to speak the truth about a popular fighter. I want to be up front by saying that Duran is not among my favorite fighters, but at the same time I want to be fair with him in this thread. Duran as a light weight is not over rated. He is an ALL time top 5 light weight. A speical fighter. He simply was too strong ( but not a big puncher ) and active for most light weights. He had an under rated defense too. Fans love Duran for his scowl in the ring. However, I do think Duran as a welter and middle weight is vastly over rated. Duran is the only HOF fighter I can think of who was KO’d by one punch and quit in a fight without a major injury. I’ve always felt he was a dirty fighter. I believe that Roberto threw an intentional low blow vs Buchanan to win the lightweight crown. While Duran was up on the cards, winning the title this way is dishonorable. Buchanan never got the re-match.

 

Not a hope in hell.

 

There is no shame in losing to a peak and hardest 147/154 puncher of all time in tommy hearns,when past your peak,above your best weight and fighting your sylistic nightmare....That final right hand would have stopped or knocked out many hall of famers at middle.....
Im sure there are many hall of famers who got knocked out with one punch,walcott,charles,fullmer,liston just of fthe top of my head...
Of course quitting against ray is a big knock,but i really dont understand fully what happened,maybe an ego meltdown or something? As he never quit before or since in tough fights i think we can call that a freak occurence....
When looking at duran we have to say that as lightweight he is venerated by ALL the old timers,who even say he is the no1 of all times....This is high praise indeed from the all timers who would probably put tyson,jones and pbf in the category of very good champions but not top atgs....
As well as the old timers,all the modern guys rate duran as the no1 of all times at lightweight...
I find it a little hard to rank with durans resume at lightweight,but he did beat buchanan and dejesus who are both hall of famers as well as some good contendors...I wonder if someone could rank and rate durans resume at lightweight for the forum?
Anyway,those who saw him at lightweight say he was the best ever....
If we then take what he achieved in his short time at welter,beating one of the true atg welters in leonard and beating world champ palamino,thats another two hall of famers there....
He also beat hall of famer cuevas at lt middle.
He lost of course to benitez (a hall of famer.) and the awkward laing. (not a hall of famer!!.) He beat davey moore and gave a near peak marvin an excellent fight for the middle crown,probably marvins toughest fight up till then....Now bear in mind,can any of you imagine any lightweight world champ in history not only competing but running close arguably the best middle of all time? Try picturing chavez,whitaker,pbf,benny leonard or any other going 15 v a peak marvin hagler...:yikes
To me duran was a demon at lightweight and welter,one of true atgs head to head,i mean just beating a peak ray at welter is something once again no lightweight could ever do....chavez,b.leonard,whitaker or pbf v ray leonard anyone?
All the things that duran did above welter to me are icing on the cake/resume,beating a huge middle in barkley for the world title,beating world champ castro at super middle past 40,being competitive with pazienza,camacho at such an advanced age and such like are great achievements for a way overweight and past peak fighter....
His longevity and amazing performances v great and good fighters is awesome.....The biggest knock on duran is he should have been more disciplined and stayed no higher than welter....
Judge him on his lightweight and welter career where he was something like 80 fights, 78 wins,two losses (one avenged twice,and 1-1 with ray leonard.) and roughly 58 kos ,with 16 winning world title fights out of 17 over 13/14 years...He also started at super bantam or 122 lbs,won titles at 4 weights (three original weights.) and finished at world level at 168....
The word p4p is invented for duran,who i think has a case for no1 p4p of all times,given the subjective nature of the sport,and the presence of so many great contendors for the no1 title making there no clear cut number one.....At this dizzying level of greatness level no one can really say that robinson was so much better than duran p4p......

 

As can be seen from my post, I described several effects usage of banned substances could result in, but none of them could make Jones show what he did. No matter how much you use them you will never achieve his handspeed if you didn't have naturally ultra-fast (as in one in a million or even more rare) hands.

Him training longer than can be usually achieved, the thing is young Jones had been training 6 to 8 hours every day for many years under guidance of his father, and he kept the habbit of keeping himself in good shape ever since, so that part came naturally as well, not because of banned substances.

His voyage to heavyweight is described on Shilstone site, with details of what methods Mackie uses for that. When he was preparing for Tarver I, he had done that without Shilstone's help and he regreted that, as it was done in a bad way. That was basically the only fight in his pro career where he had problems with stamina, all the rest (even the fight vs Glen Johnson) he didn't look visibly winded as the fight went on, so unless you want to think that he's been able to conceal usage of banned substances in 20+ only title fights alone, and many more without a title, there's only one conclusion - it came naturally with hard training he is known for.
Even at 38 years of age Roy has the fastest hands of any light heavyweight in history, no steroids will let you show such results at this age, if it wasn't given to you by nature (genetics).

And the last thing is, of course, the fact that Jones was known for all these qualities since he was an amateur, you can see him already ultra fast in Victor Levine bout that was in 1986.

 

The #1 place at 154lb belongs to Julian Jackson, not to Hearns.

 

Actually had him at no 5. Perhaps a little high, but he is as good (probably the best along with Henry Armstrong) that I've seen on film.

 

How exactly is Duran's resume better than Jones's?

Who looked more unbeatable and impressive at their peak? For me it's Jones Jr, hands down. Hopkins (middleweight), Toney (super middleweight) and Hill (light heavyweight) were very good tests and none had any chances at all, one-sided fights (despite what the judges gave 4 rounds to Hopkins, B-Hop didn't really prove his superiority to win a single round of that fight).