Is Roberto Duran the greatest boxer since Sugar Ray Robinson?

Fair point - but I was taking it more literally, in terms of who was 'better' not 'greater' I.e because modern fighters did have these benefits and older ones didn't then the current ones would probably be better if they are all fought each other. Agreed, though that if we looking at it from another view, i.e assuming the older fighters did have all of the modern benefits then that's a different discussion.

 

Mike Tyson & Roy Jones were old-school trainers, 2 of the most explosive recent fighters on film & they declined after using "modern" methods.

Joe Calzaghe was old-school as well, he never lifted a weight or did any plyo. Just lots of running up hills plus floor exercises, bags, pads & sparring.

 

I gave Roy Jones as an example: 'modern nutritioning' hampered his career!

And as for Floyd, I ain't goin' over it again, but he barely makes my top100. Katie K; welcome aboard, you're sound thus far :good

 

Exactly. People gas within 12 rounds nowadays!

 

No matter what the 'modern training techniques and nutrition' boxing has stayed the same for 80 years. In fact it's sort of regressed in skill level. Modern whatever hasn't brought it on at all like it has other sports. Katie is comparing apples and oranges. Boxing can't be compared to sports like athletics and many other sports because it deals so much in skill, hand eye coordination and technique. That's why it hasn't moved on so much like other sports that have been impacted by those modern things to the point where it's unfair to compare some sports past participants with todays ones. If anything Boxing is the opposite - it's not fair on todays fighters being compared to past greats because modern fighters just can't compete. Think about this, how can we even comprehend what the likes of Jimmy Wilde and Archie Moore did in todays watered down era? It boggles the mind.

Katie, I want you to do something for me. Watch some footage of Henry Armstrong and see how he use to literally fight for 45 minutes non stop. Legendary stamina. Very few men can match that perpetual motion no matter WHAT the training techniques or new nutrition is. Just do that and tell me what you think. Bearing in mind he was doing that 75 plus years ago. Fighters today with all their shakes and 'modern nutrition' can't even fight at maximum pace for a couple of rounds before they start blowing out of their arses. There is also a MASSIVE difference between general fitness and ring fitness. So even if a fighter from yesteryear doesn't look as cut as someone like David Haye for example, you can bet your bottom dollar he was MUCH superior ring fitness. Also the best fighters still use old training techniques. Do you know Floyd Mayweather runs in boots just like the old school fighters use to?

It's a fact the past greats were technically superior, no debate needed on that. They were also MUCH tougher because they were subjected to tougher conditons and fought MUCH more often improving how comfortable they were in the ring.

 

They dont hit as hard either & generally have worse technique. There arent many genuinely good punchers around at the moment imo.

24(30 really) hour weigh-ins plays a big role in modern conditioning. The emphasis is on cutting 10-15+ pounds which doesnt help with the stamina, performance levels or longevity imo.

 

As I've said many times before, this is one of the weaker era's for me, in terms if depth and technical ability.

Slip; great post as always, as you know, that's what I feel.

Mo: good stuff :good

Katie: hope you don't think we're ganging up on you :good

 

Not at all - loving the debate TBH.

Interesting stuff Slip&Counter

 

Can someone tell me what the exact benefits of modern nutrition, training, etc actually are? It's oft-mentioned but I'm not sure what positives they add. Joe Calzaghe utilised methods of preperation that were considered ''archaic'', yet he was renowned for having this non-stop workrate that was one of the most impressive in the sport. On the flipside to that we have Jean Pascal, a world class light heavyweight(not world class FIGHTER full stop, but he's a top 175 pounder) who has a shredded physique due to said methods, yet he's considered a 4 round fighter?

I know it's done on a case-by-case basis, but when there's a cacophany of fighters nowadays who take advantage of these methods who still gas relatively early in fights, and there were a cacophany of fighters in just about every single era of fighters who didn't benefit from these modern advancements yet still lasted the duration with plenty of steam in tact, it makes me question quite what these things add.

It evidently doesn't increase stamina to any kind of significant degree, and from what I can tell it doesn't necessarily add to the skills of those who use them. The only facet I can see it aiding is athleticism, which you don't get past prospect level with unless you have actual boxing ability to go with it anyways.

 

Very good point 'Pab.

In Gans'/Nelsons days, gloves were so small that fighters punched more sparingly, and timing and accuracy were more important.

Now, with the safest gloves we've ever seen, it doesn't seem there are too many high workrate fighters. Those that are, seem to be throwing a lot of arm punches.

I also agree that we have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

I honestly think 24 hour weigh-ins have made the prevalent strategy size, and the time cutting weight and not spending honing technique detrimental to many fighters I see fighting today.

Let's NOT get ahead of ourselves and assume all fighters from the past were technical savants that never got tired. In fact, each era had it's drastic weight cutters and fighters being drained because of it as well.

It just seems more common. Also, because fighters are out less regularly, we remember their problems more. A bad showing back in the day didn't mean as much, as a month later you could try and move on. Now, the last performance is under the microscope for six months until the guy fights again, and when the opponent is underwhelming it's just a total waste of time.

 

As Sugar Ray Lenoard said - "Boxing is a Poor mans sport"

Real raw fighters - had old school tried and tested - raw training methods - and got by on that - skipping and road work and bags and pads and sparring and ground work. Nothing fancy - you dont want to be working out in a nice comfortable luxury gym with all the mod cons - that would get you too soft and comfortable. Better off in a sweaty old gym with the smell of blood in the air if you want to be a real fighter.

Also - the big thing - fighters at heart - like young raw mexicans who get in the ring and fight and take on all comers - win lose or draw.

Todays era with fighters like Haye and Floyd Mayweather more the ***** mentality - too precious - too selective - got to protect the undefeated record - on some organic diet - only fight if there is so much excess $$$$ on the table - need the right referee and judges - and condtions - and all the rest if it even in Hayes case right down to failing to give a true performance because your so scared of getting punched - its more about show biz and money than actually fighting.

Old school fighters - just laced them up and fought whoever - some might be jobbed for a decsion or thrown in a little deep too early and lose - like Azumah Nelson getting stopped by Salvodor Sanchez - but ultimately this kind of expereince and regalaur active fighting resume - gives great experience and helps the developent of a true all around fighter.

Also losing a fight early on in a fighters career may release a bit of pressure and hype at being a undefeated fighter.

Barrera a professional at 15 years old - had about 40 fights by the time he was 21 or 22 years old - great experience for such a fighter. Then he lost for first time and bounced back to become a even more mature and devloped fighter. By the time he fought Hamed - it wasent him feeling the pressure of losing his undefeated record and hype - yet he was still the more seasoned all around fighter.

Boxing these days just breeds softer fighters than yesteryear.

 

:deal

Pabby, when Calzaghe first started boxing his Dad made him run 3 miles to the nearest boxing gym, do a session and then run 3 miles home, so i think that sort of work rate was hammered into him from an early age

 

Flint is back... :happy