Is Roberto Duran the greatest boxer since Sugar Ray Robinson?

I never said that Ali wouldn't have dominated Norton in his prime. Only that he doesn't get a free pass for not dominating him past his best.

I'll re-score all 3 later if I get the chance, there's never more than a couple of points in there either way, always fun, cheers lads :good

 

Aye fair dos mate. Duran gets plenty of free passes though, no arguing that.
I'd not wish that on you, I think they are horrible fights. Norton's style really hurts my eyes.

 

One for fun.

Better wins: Ali post Folley or Duran post Leonard II?

 

Same here. I don't think I've watched any of them more than 2 or 3 times.

 

Ali, definitely!

Beating a crude brawler, only really impressive for the circumstances surrounding them, is Duran's big win after Leonard II.

Ali beat a superior crude brawler (Foreman), as well as Frazier twice, Quarry twice, Shavers, Norton, Bonavena and Lyle

 

Ali, of course! Even taking into account Duran being a naturally smaller guy, Ali post-exiles reume is stronger than his 'prime' resume. The fact he pulled that off whilst being heavier, less mobile (but IMO sturdier than the 'peak' Clay) is nothing short of astounding.

Exactlywhy myself and ManBearPig are debating who is greater out of the two ;-) Post-Robinson, it's between Duran or Ali, and it's what you like :good

Who do you think is 'greater' God? :think

 

Davey Moore was a very good fighter as well. Despite it being easy to say 'he was green' he came back from a real outclassing at the hands of Kalule to force a stoppage. That was another quality win for Duran, especially considering the manner of victory/size etc etc

 

Quarry is about the same level.

I'll flesh out - coming back from a 3 year layoff to stop a top contender in 3 rounds is as impressive (and I think Moore never proved himself to be superior to Quarry)

 

Ali for me. Decent "first" reign, not quite as good as Durans at 135 but then the "second" reign that trumps Durans career at 147 and above.

As you've said Flea the only asterix over the post-prime question is how much extra credit you give Duran for fighting bigger guys at 30+ years of age which is something Ali didn't have to do.

 

Quarry is a higher level IMO. I wasn't comparing Durans post-prime wins to Ali there, but rather contesting your assertion that Duran only had one significant win :good

 

It was Duran's "Foreman" moment, so I named it. Ali has the work outside of a Foreman, that's why I have him above.

 

So does Duran, although I agree that he doesn't have as much depth as Ali.

As per Gaz's criteria

DURAN

Cuevas
Moore
Barkley + More longevity but more patchiness (Simms; Benitez; Hearns)

ALI

Quarry
Bonavena
Chuvalo
Frazier x2
Ellis
Mathis
Foster
Bugner
Lyle
Foreman

But also has his own patchiness. Series with Norton, dropped by Wepner, lost to Spinks (avenged) and finished his career in a really horrible, unsatisfactory manner.

I actually think Ali ppost-physical prime WAS his prime. Stopping iron chinned Bonavena, his effort in his first fight with Frazier, greatest win of all time over Foreman.

I try hard not to penalise HWs for not 'weight jumping' (as it's something that is fairly unimpressive in this day and age and means I'd rank Floyd Mayweather Jr over say, Tyson or Foreman if I put too much credence in it) but it's hard not to give Duran immense credit for his.

IMO :good

 

Dropped by Wepner? REALLY?

**** sake man, you've clearly not watched this fight you're commenting on then.

 

I'll reply in more depth just now, the post deserves it. The Wepner thing was just ridiculous.

 

No I haven't watched it in a while but I have it here.....what fight am I thinking of mate?

I'll get back to ya', I'm obviouly mis-remembering something :huhatsch

EDIT: Obvious slip atsch I do remember it, Ali carried him. I checke the dates as well, I assumed it was much, much later into Alis career but it was actually right after Foreman :-(

Blame it on the weed.