Is Schmelling the most underrated HW?

Having seen those fights vs Quarry and Ellis back then live, I'll go to my grave believing that Patterson won those fights..Patterson should have been the first man to win the title 3 times..even if it was just the WBA title..

 

schmeling really was the best heavyweight of the 1930s overall. Apart from that KO loss to baer he was never decisively beaten until the Louis rematch.

Baer was a freak loss, either side of it schmeling was great. Lennox lewis got Ko'd twice during his era after all. at his best Baer could always lose to fighters more inferior to schmeling, you would have to back schmeling in a rematch with Baer.

That said schmeling recognised Louis as his superior, he just had the experience and seasoning to beat him first time around.

I would still give the decade to Max overall 1929-37 he was some fighter, Louis's era was 1937- 1947.

 

floyd didnt fight the best but roy harris, machen and folly were the only "at that time rated" guys liston beat before becoming a champ. All had been knocked out just as impresively by other fighters. neither were unbeaten over the previous 2 years.

 

No he hasn´t but he has numerous wins over contenders. And others than all of those many if not most of his wins were over bigger and younger guys. Something that I value quite a bit. Bowe IMO doesn´t belong there. His resume and longevity is just too thin. Frazier ranks above Patterson. Schmeling slightly behing him, there´s not much between them. The decider are Floyd´s superior achievements - more title defences, youngest hw champ, first to regain the title.

True. But what he did afterwards is the stuff legends are made of. Coming back from thsoe Liston defeats to beat numerous contenders while beeing older and smaller and additionally he should have won the WBA crown. Inspireing enough for me.

Nah, Liston´s resume does not top Patterson´s. Patterson´s is deeper. And yeah, Liston has those two wins over Patterson that´s why resume-wise it´s close but Patterson has that advantage in achievements - more title defences, youngest hw champ, first to regain the title . that puts him over Liston.
As said before I don´t rank "h2h". You don´t necessarily rank Lewis over Holy - I do though - or Foreman over Frazier - I don´t - either.

I don´t rate him p4p at all. Not in my Top50 and I don´t intent to go further.

Would certainly have been fascinating. :thumbsup

In the end lists are just fun and very subjective and only good to get a discussion started. They shouldn´t be taken too serious.

 

Baer beat Schmeling fair and square, he was just too strong and unpredictable, and put up an effort for a change. The problem with rating Baer is that he could perform horribly as well, so you have to put Schmeling above him for consistency.

The Sharkey-Schmeling fights are another source of controversy. Sharkey was steadily picking apart a still improving Schmeling in the first fight until the DQ (the only time the heavyweight title was won on a disqualification). Schmeling deserved to win the rematch over a declining Sharkey, but was robbed.

Primo or Braddock don't rate with the rest of them, but it would have been good to see Schmeling fight them both. The fights were very close to taking place too. He would have probably beaten both, and added to his legacy.

 

I love how this has turned into an appreciation thread!

A great fighter turned into a political pawn and only really bested by baer at his best. He shared a great era with legends such as sharkey and louis going 1-1 with both of them. The loss to baer of course works greatly against him since i'm convinced he'd have been higher regarded during the era.

But looking back with our glorious all seeing hindsight I have no problem with someone claiming max s was the heavyweight of the 30's. Afterall he held a victory over louis and was disgracefully denied his well earned title shot out of fear he'd take it back to germany and keep it there.

A true legend of the sport. But i'm probably going a bit overboard, i've just won 4 in a row on fightnight after watching two very good fights, consumed half a bottle of teachers and am right now watching the don king card so this thread could be appreciating anyone and i'd be on board!

Still tho I at one time had max as high as 12 on my list, I think now he's at 20 or so.

 

I agree, the Baer ko of Schmeling was NOT a fluke...far from it..I think Baer had Schmeling's number as a matter of fact...and those things just happen, that's all. Baer was motivated to fight Schmeling and that would have been the cast in a rematch. Baer gets undersold here..we never saw the real Max Baer in a title bout. The glimpse you got of Baer vs Schmeling was a hint of what he could have been. Maybe Baer needed to be motivated by hatred to be the lethal fighter he could and should have been....and he hated Schmeling.

 

Bodhi,to put Schmeling ahead of Dempsey is ludicrous. Some boxer of note, once said that there was great heavyweights he faced in the ring,but" one stood out from the others ", and that one was JACK DEMPSEY ! Oh by the way the fighter who made that statement was MAX SCHMELING, who
boxed with Dempsey while Dempsey was visiting Germany. Read Max Schmeling's biography ,straight from the horses mouth. Who should know better B, you or Max Schmeling ?
What darn criteria do you use B ? Is Schmeling wrong ,or Sam Langford,
or Gene Tunney, or Mickey Walker, or Jack Sharkey,amongst others, and
you utterly defy the overwhelming opinions of those fighters who fought him,and especially Max Schmeling who saw first-hand the power of the Manassa Mauler,when he sparred with Dempsey often...Read Max Schmeling's fine autobiography B, it will enlighten you...Cheers..

 

Good HW, but his inconsistency badly hurts his ranking' he lost to guys that he shouldn't
The politics of the time robbed him of a deserved title shot at Braddock.

 

I normally have no patience for arbitrary lists and all associated discussion...but this got me thinking...

Schmeling is typically held several spaces below Bowe on most top 20 lists (basically just squeezing in the back end of the 20 if appearing at all, while Bowe is usually placed just outside the top ten).

Obviously Bowe would have to be favored h2h due to his size, but did he really have that much better a career than Schmeling? Sure - he had nine fewer losses, his only one being to an ATG. His best scalp happens to be that same ATG. However, there's a sizable drop in quality to his next best wins. Schmeling also has a win over an ATG to whom he also has a loss - a better ATG, at that. His secondary and tertiary wins also probably stack up against Bowe's in all honesty. Had Bowe fought more of the best of his era, he might well have approached Schmeling's # of losses.

I'm not sure there's a whole lot between them...or that if you take away the size advantage Bowe would still be the favorite h2h.

 

Schemling is not rated below Bowe on most lists, at the least the lists I've encountered. This thread has got me thinking, and maybe even I underrate Schemling. A great fighter. A definite top 20. He's close to par with the Walcott's, Patterson's, and Charles' but I think he is a hair below those guys.

 

Schmeling did to a prime Joe Louis what Walcott could not do to a faded one.

Thats one way to look at it.

 

This is where I rate schmeling amoung the lineer champs.

1.joe louis
2 muhammad ali
3 rocky marciano
4 dempsey
5 holmes
6 johnson
7 lennox lewis
8 hollyfield
9 foreman
10 tyson
11 baer
12jeffries
13 schmeling
14liston
15patterson
16charles
17wallcot
18frazier
19ingo johanason
20primo carnera
21buster douglas
22gene tunney
23bowe
24 willard
25 sharkey
26 rahman
27 tommy burns
28 moorer
29 mike spinks
30 braddock
31` leon spinks
32 shannon briggs

I still put baer above schmeling on account of the fact that the year baer won the title the best two heavyweights were schmeling and carnera- baer knocked them both out, you cant do anymore than that. even so I look at where I have baer and wonder what the hell hes doing above Frazier!! Maybe I could adjust that, but I have schmeling above a lot of more celebrated fighters because he was great either side of the baer loss and wasn’t decisively beat in nearly 10 years until Louis got his revenge.