Is Sonny Liston A Top Ten HW ATG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ThatOne, Aug 30, 2023.



Is he?

  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Ok if you're acknowledging simply hitting the gym isn't enough to stay sharp then what are you arguing for? If I point out Liston hadn't had more than 3 rounds of action in 3 years, why are you claiming this is some exaggeration or not a big deal? It absolutely is a big deal.

    There is no HW champion who is going to have an easy time keeping their belt with 3 years of inactivity and having to fight a prime Ali. If that statement sounds crazy to you then you aren't worth responding to.

    You can doubt the clips of you want and come up with your own theory out of left field and that puts you in conspiracy land. You would need to actually prove he was staying sharp and focused throughout that whole time period when there is zero evidence of it even from random onlookers who visited the gyms. That leads to confirmation bias if you're going to ignore multiple reports, videos, and articles to zero in on the one piece of evidence that fits your narrative.
     
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  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Maybe some points worthy of consideration that haven’t been addressed as yet, I don’t think.

    From the first Cooper fight to the first Liston fight, it appeared that Ali made a quantum leap in terms of his development.

    Physically, I think Ali was about 207 lb for Cooper, so while there was some physical gain by the time of the Liston fight, it wasn’t huge.

    But that doesn’t take on board the obvious difference in styles between Liston and Cooper.

    It also doesn’t account for Ali’s complacency, goofing off and attempt to prolong and fight to prediction against Henry.

    Even with all that, stylistically, Cooper still proved to be an awkward customer in his own right

    To accurately gauge Ali’s development, it’s probably better to compare the 63 Cooper fight to the Cooper rematch in 66 - using the same, reasonably static, form of opposition.

    Ali was clearly more serious for the rematch. but Cooper was still a somewhat awkward opponent in his own right for Ali - just as before.

    No KD second time around for Cooper and still no hint of Ali achieving a KD of Cooper himself.

    A bad cut saw the fight stopped - basically just as it did in the first match.

    No major point aside from the observing the possibility that from Cooper 1 to Liston 1, there might’ve been a false, exaggerates read on how much more Ali had developed due to stylistic meshes and Ali’s complacent v Cooper not being accounted for.

    While there might’ve been other reasons to believe that Liston would beat Ali easily - I think the complexion of the first Cooper fight, particularly the dramatic KD, really set Ali up to be viewed as a particularly easy victim - which was quite misleading.

    Cooper had a great left hook - this was known, - - within and launching from that known realm of quality, Henry may well have thrown his best left hook ever to put an over confident, inattentive and overly loose Ali down. It was a terrific shot.

    For what it’s worth - if Liston himself ever fought Cooper (I’m pretty sure Cooper didn’t want that fight - or least his manager Jim Wicks certainly didn’t want it), I’d forecast a 2 round KO win for Liston - it all comes down to styles and accented strengths and weaknesses.
     
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  3. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    First I said you get sharp in the gym. I never said you get sharp in fights - you learn in fights. Your second paragraph, did I say something about that? I’m saying it is a good win by Ali that Liston was a much more worthy opponent then it says on the tin, maybe you’re misunderstanding?

    I don’t know what to tell you but when the cameras are on fighters play for the camera and I don’t care for the footage. It’s up to you to decide, you already have so we can’t go further.

    It’s a fact they can change their behaviour for one reason or another - one example on the opposite end of the spectrum is that guys would spar hard, brutal rounds when newspaper men were around in the old days to beef up the gate.
     
  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    I don't care about your conspiracy theories. If you think Liston was training hard for those 3 years, go ahead.

    It is a fact he only saw 3 rounds of action in 3 years, that he had shoulder problems, and that he was over 30. Name me a HW who is keeping his belt defending against a prime Ali with those conditions.
     
  5. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    It was more like two years. He fought in December of 61 and quit against Ali in February of 64. Math.

    Considering that Vitali Klitschko had a bad shoulder and sat out for almost four years, winning the title deep into his 30s in his first fight back, he'd be a good candidate. It also sounds eerily similar to something Tyson Fury would have little trouble pulling off.
     
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  6. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    Lol are you really that confused and presumptuous? - I don’t know how you’re coming to these conclusions in my words.
     
  7. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    He said he couldn't tolerate black and white thinking and proceeded to pretend like Liston's loses to Ali were just loses and not loses with embarrassing bad performances.
     
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  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Vitali beat Samuel Peter, that's your candidate? Beating Peter is a good measuring stick for figuring out if a boxer can beat prime Ali?
     
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  9. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Just because you just learned the word presumptuous doesn't mean it applies here.

    Still waiting for you to name a boxer you think would beat prime Ali under those conditions.
     
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  10. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    It was a green 205 pounder who just struggled with Doug Jones and Cooper. That's a yes from me, dogg.

    Lewis, Holmes, and Wlad might beat him too after a layoff.
     
  11. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    :lol: Where did I say I could mate? Go back, trace your steps. You’re lost. Going after me because I used a word? You sound like a bitter sulk if you ask me. You’re more confused then I thought.
     
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Ali was 210.5 lbs in the Liston fight. I noticed you only care about being meticulous when it comes to math when it suits your agenda.

    And if you think beating Peter is an indication a fighter can beat Ali then you aren't worth responding to.
     
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  13. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    -You're confused about what the word presumptuous means.
    -You're confused about how inactivity affects a boxer.
    -You're confused about how the overwhelming amount of evidence points to the fact Liston was not diligently training and staying in shape during the years leading up to the Ali fight.
    -You're confused about the original discussion and are all over the place.
    -You're confused about how debates work in general and that's why Bokaj realized responding to you was a waste of time. No wonder you and NoNeck get along. It is literally impossible to get a straight answer or reply out of either of you or to follow a coherent thought from point A to point B.
     
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  14. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    I don’t even talk to @NoNeck for a start. This is a long way of saying “Doh” on your part. To quote you “thanks for playing” (as If you can win a forum discussion lol) now back to it quote me saying I knew someone who could beat Ali under the same circumstances as Liston? You keep talking like I said I knew the answer after all.
     
  15. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    I see bulked for that fight and that fight only in that period. Not only was he green, but he also was at an unnatural weight. Even worse.