Is Sonny Liston A Top Ten HW ATG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ThatOne, Aug 30, 2023.



Is he?

  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Byrd was a southpaw who was losing by a lot until VItali quit with a torn rotator cuff, requiring surgery. Liston didn't get any surgery that I know of or ever specify what the problem was.

    Vitali fought and beat various Ali impersonators including Donald, Kirk Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Solis (on the night he fought VItali), and to a lessor extent, Adamek and Gomez. He also beat Sanders who had some of the fastest hands in the history of the division. He did well against the style.
     
  2. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sonny Liston's challenge to Ali in 1965 was arguably the WORST attempt to win a heavyweight title in history.

    You can hear the timekeeper (counting for the knockdown) outside the ring pounding on the floor in the film below.

    If you stop the film with Liston on his knee at 4:34 ... which is when the timekeeper stopped pounding because Liston had been on the floor for 10 seconds at that point ... Ali and Walcott aren't even in the frame. They are both in the neutral corner.

    Ali wasn't standing over him. He's not even in the picture when Liston decided to head for the floor FOR A SECOND TIME.

    When Liston went down a second time without even being hit, he effectively gave up.

    That's why Ali ran over there. Because when Liston fell down a second time, he'd quit.

    The timekeeper had stopped banging on the floor. Ali could hear it. Liston could hear it. Liston was a veteran. He knew he'd been counted out. When he got up, he expected Walcott to stop it.

    But Walcott walked away and Ali began throwing punches again.

    Liston didn't fight back, he just ducked, wondering why Walcott hadn't stopped it.

    It was arguably the worst attempt at winning a heavyweight title in history.

    Liston didn't try to win AT ALL, went down TWICE - the second time without being hit - from a nothing shot, and didn't even fight back the fight briefly continued.

    Terrible. That guy is not one of the 10 best heavyweights who ever lived based on his record, and throw that performance on top of it ... no way IN HELL.

    He tried harder to go down than anything else he did in that fight.

    And neither time he went down looked legit. Because he went down twice ... from that one punch.

     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2023
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  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Same to yourself good man! Nice to see you back.
     
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  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Byrd was clearly much more effective landing with a higher percentage than Vitali despite landing less overall. Byrd was a hell of a lot more similar to Ali than Samuel ****ing Peter :lol: He made Vitali look bad with 10 days notice. He was diagnosed with a torn rotator cuff because Byrd was making him miss, and it was eeriely similar to how Ali made Liston's shoulder worse making him miss. So I stand by what I said. Vitali likely quits on his stool after being embarrassed by Ali. Gomez and Adamek had weak chins, were garbage, and never won anything significant at HW. Ali was a 3x champion and had an iron chin. As for Sanders, Vitali actually had a lot of trouble with him due to the hand speed despite Sanders being fat and old.

    You dismiss Byrd due to being a southpaw, then you cite Sanders as being similar to Ali despite the fact Sanders is a southpaw. You're not even consistent within your own post. When you can figure out what your criteria is, let me know because you're all over the place as usual.
     
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  5. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Gomez and Adamek were far from garbage. Dismissing them would be like dismissing Ruddock, Wilder, Bruno, etc as meaningless wins. None of these guys have much in the way of quality wins. Vitali never subsequently quit so quitting against Ali seems unlikely.
     
  6. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Sanders was faster than Byrd, like Ali.

    Gomez and Adamek were more accomplished than Ali was going into the first Liston fight.
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    So do southpaws fighters count or not when looking at fighters similar to Ali? You haven't really explained your criteria.

    Accomplishments and actual ability are 2 very different things. Gomez and Adamek were garbage.
     
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  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Compared to Ali they were garbage. Ruddock, Wilder, and Bruno would also be meaningless wins if compared to Ali who was A+ S+ level. Adamek and Gomez were C level fighters with bad chins. Simply having some style similarities isn't enough.

    Vitali quit once against Byrd in an extremely similar fashion to Liston quitting against Ali, that's why I brought it up. Liston didn't quit before or after that match and neither did Vitali so...if you want to put an inactive 37 year old Vitali with a shoulder injury against a prime Ali, I don't see it ending well for Vitali.
     
  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    You resorting to insulting Gomez and Adamek=I win
     
  10. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    I guess we're back to you refusing to answer anything so, you actually lost lol. You do not know how to debate and I'm thinking you get off on wasting people's time.
     
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  11. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think the Byrd situation is at all comparable to the rematch though where Liston clearly could have beaten the count and chose not to. That was a pretty blatant quit job with no injury excuse even attempted. Also Vitali's arm injury seems well documented whereas there seems to be controversy over how badly Liston's arm was hurt or if there was any injury at all. He seemed to have full use of both arms throughout the bout and quit simply because he was being outclassed.
     
  12. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Timekeepers aren’t empowered to count fighters out - the ref HAS to give the count. Walcott didn’t start a count at all. Walcott didn’t apply a count so there was NO count.

    WHY didn’t Walcott start a count?

    Because Ali clearly failed to retreat to a neutral corner - that’s not a count to be picked up on - that’s a SUSPENDED count.

    I timed 8 - 9 secs after Liston hit the canvas before Ali even began moving TOWARD a neutral corner, having to be forcibly guided by Walcott - after several failed attempts to get Ali to retreat prior to.

    Ali raised his hands even when being guided to a neutral corner - that he raised his arms after Liston fell back down obviously doesn’t mean anything - and Ali was ready to go again when Walcott waved it back again - no hint of protest or suggestion that he genuinely felt the fight was over at that point.

    With Ali finally at some form of distance away - that’s EXACTLY when Liston began to rise.

    Liston let himself drop because he saw Ali rounding back. Ali was ALREADY there again when Liston fell onto his back - and again, Walcott had to put his arms out to keep Ali at bay.

    Ali NEVER got to that neutral corner properly - he didn’t stop moving and he basically rounded back to get at Liston when he saw Liston begin to rise.

    When Liston properly rose the second time - Ali, while still not properly retreated, was at least further away than he was when hovering ridiculously close to Liston after the initial KD.

    To continue fight, Liston didn’t have to anything but arise and accept Walcott’s indication that the fight was still on - with Ali finally at some measure of distance away, though still not technically sufficient - that is exactly when Liston did fully arise.

    Plenty of fighters don’t immediately throw after arising from a KD - there were occasions when Liston wasn’t throwing in the first fight when Ali himself was cutting loose with a barrage - which is exactly what Ali did when the fight was waved back on.

    Note also that Ali didn’t connect with much if at all, as Liston backed up a bit and moved and ducked his head to avoid the punches.


     
  13. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Looks a good thread this, I’ve only read the last three pages but I’m more convinced then ever that the answer is a resounding “no”. :D
     
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  14. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Ringo says “Hola, Hola, he don’t know why you say goodbye he says Hola”.
     
  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I know that was pretty close, but controversial?