Is Sonny Liston A Top Ten HW ATG?

Either Moore or the guy that sparked Machen out in 1.

Apart from those he also had Jackson x 2, Harris, London, Machen himself, Cooper, Chuvalo and Bonavena among his wins. That's 11 wins over rated opposition, and 14 if you add fights were most thought he got a raw deal by the judges (Quarry x 2 plus Ellis).

It's without question the best among Liston's victims. Whom among Louis's would you say had a better one?

 

That's not a comparable situation as Liston was a grown man with considerable experience as early as 1955 easily beating everyone he came up against whereas Clay at 16 wasn't physically close to the fighter he would become let alone lack of experience.
Liston probably was a top 10 heavyweight as far back as 1955 and could have been beating the divisions elites throughout the late 1950s.

 

Roy Harris getting a "lot" of love in this thread. It's hilarious. The "rated" Roy Harris and his 9 whole knockouts.

 

"Lot of love"? I named him among ranked opp, which he was.

He was undefeated and came off a win over Pastrano when Patterson beat him. Why didn't he deserve his ranking you mean?

 

He was a sparring partner for Charles and Charles didn't seem terribly impressed by him from memory. Around that time he also lost to Marshal and had about 10 fights (12 at the end of 1955, I think), without much of an amateur background. What makes you think he was top 10 material?

 

Liston wasn't a top 10 heavyweight as far back as 1955.

Liston wasn't beating the elites of the division in the late 1950s.

The highest rated fighter Liston beat in the 1950s was #9 rated Mike DeJohn in 1959.

DeJohn was rated #9 and Liston was rated #10.

There's "probably" and then there's "what actually happened."

Liston's the only guy people do this for ... I swear.

 

So at the time it was ancient Moore or Sugar Ingo? A murderers row of opposition. Baer, Schemling gosh Walcott? More most likely this is off the top of my head - You could make a case for Saint Carnera being more proven then Patterson was at the time

 

Jack Sharkey had 13 ko's in 53 fights.

 

Correct.

 

They all play with Liston.

 

Do I have to make he list for you of all the guys these guys lost to? Imagine the uproar if Patterson won the title by DQ against a guy that couldn't get past a fat MW.

Instead he won it against someone who'd stay a ranked HW and LHW champion for years. And he regained it against someone that never lost to anyone else than Patterson.

Tell me how many of them that had Patterson's record in world title fights and against ranked opposition? Accounting for losses as well.

Btw, both Patterson and Walcott lost disputed decisions to Maxim. The difference being that Walcott was in his prime and Patterson was a 167 lbs teenager.

 

So that’s your stance? that Patterson at the time Liston beat him is better then everyone on Louis’s record? That’s what you’re saying.

 

A fighter having to defend against the prime Ali who fought Liston? The Ali who was hungry for victory and had something to prove with dazzling speed, dodging ability, a sharp jab, fierce flurries, etc?

Approximately ZERO fighters in history would have kept their title with those circumstances (3 rounds of action in 3 years).

 

He struggled with Doug Jones and Cooper in the two fights leading up to Liston. There's zero evidence that Ali was prime other than that Liston quit.

 

Other than the Williams fight (a completely washed up guy who didn't offer much resistance), in which fights in the 60's did Ali look better than he did against Liston when he won the title?