Is Sonny Liston A Top Ten HW ATG?

Ali looked better against EVERYONE he defended against in the 1960s, dude. Name a title fight where Ali lost more than half the rounds on an official's card and even had a 10-8 round scored against him.

Because that's what happened in the first Ali-Liston fight. One judge had Liston ahead in points, and in rounds and even gave Liston a 10-8 round over Ali.

The fact that Liston quit a fight he was actually ahead in on one card and even on another is ALL ON LISTON.

Ali wasn't at his best yet. He wasn't prime yet.

 

Imagine lacking the self awareness to understand that you aren't important enough for people to be following your directions as if it's a homework assignment. Reeks of dark triad behavior.

 

I'm not going to let you change the subject. If you don't or won't respond to my posts on the topic at hand, then don't.

Most dominant heavyweight champions wouldn't have lost to an 8-1 underdog, who just turned 22 years old, who was down in his last fight against a British fringe contender and who struggled to decision a light heavyweight in his previous two outings.

Most dominant champs beat all their 8-1 underdogs, if they even fight challengers who are such longshots to win.

Lots of all-time greats across the sport lost their first crack at a title because they were young and weren't ready. And then they won it the next time around against someone else.

Everyone wouldn't have lost to the 22-year-old still-learning Cassius Clay. That's an excuse to let Liston off the hook.

Just like everyone wouldn't have lost to the longtime journeyman and all-used-up Braddock. And everyone wouldn't have lost to longshot, late-sub, underdog Andy Ruiz in New York. And everyone wouldn't have lost to Buster Douglas in Tokyo.

Douglas was ready to quit when Tyson floored him. Clay was ready to quit when he got stuff in his eye. Braddock thought about quitting. Ruiz was down and could've stayed down there.

The reason we don't have huge upsets all the time is those underdogs need a lot of help from the dominant fighters they are facing, specifically they need those favorites to demonstrate a lack of heart and desire to engage on those nights.

Liston quit. And then he quit again when they fought a second time.

Every champ in history wouldn't have quit against a 22-year-old Clay. Every champ in history wouldn't have lost to him, etiher.

 

Yes, Liston is a top 10 ATG HW for mine.

On the subject of Ali’s performance vs Liston in Miami - most if not all prior HW Champs would’ve lost to THAT Ali, imo.

His performance was sublime. Tallying cards after just 6 rounds could reveal close scores for a lot of fights that were otherwise run away with.

The cards don’t identify obvious shifts in momentum, the early, incremental stages of increasing domination or the like.

Liston, already past prime, surrendered with a legitimately injured shoulder (provable).

A prime Liston cleaned out the division before being afforded a long overdue shot. A very big deal.

Sonny finally gets the title shot and destroys the current title holder. He duly gives him a return and destroyed him again.

Next up, in only his second defence, he faces his number one contender……a challenger destined to become perhaps the Greatest of All Time..and, per the performance be posted in Miami, barely shy of his absolute prime form anyway…

Where’s Foreman in everyone’s top 10? A 10 years older, exile punctured, past prime Ali cleaned KO’d a 24 yo old Foreman who was at his absolute peak.

Ali rolling fighters who were otherwise unstoppable forces actually became a “thing” - and it certainly wasn’t an indictment on the otherwise dominating fighters he did roll.

It was far more about just how great Ali was - not about how less great the other guys were.

 

He didn't get the opportunity but realistically Liston could have beaten top 10 opponents far before he had the opportunity. Even the 1955 version of Liston should make easy work of plenty of top 10 opponents. Like Summerlin who he already beat, Jackson, Satterfield etc

 

Too easy to give Liston a pass.

It took Ali 12 rounds to stop Patterson who was struggling with a bad back right after that. Chuvalo went all 15 with him and Ali complained about Chuvalo's rough tactics that troubled him the whole fight.

Future greats have lost title shots when they were young - Arguello didn't win his first title shot.

Ali wasn't sublime against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper the first time around, against Liston either time (Ali wanted to quit during it.) Or during Patterson and Chuvalo, for that matter.

He was still learning.

Ali was a "down the road future great" who should've lost his first title fight, if Sonny was actually one of the very best ever.

Liston quitting in fight one and straight up going down and rolling around in their rematch just two minutes in ... was TERRIBLE.

Ali wasn't great in the first two minutes of their rematch. He wasn't particularly great in their first fight. It was an even fight.

We saw in the Leotis Martin fight how big a pasting you had to deliver on Liston to put him away. Ali didn't do anything of the sort.

Liston was justifiably a huge favorite against a 22-year-old kid who barely got there after a dodgy decision and having to get off the deck at Wembley.

But the fight got tough, and Sonny folded. EVERY heavyweight champion doesn't do that. Many NEVER quit. Liston did it back to back.

The second time it only took him two minutes to look for a spot on the floor. Ali being "sublime" wasn't the reason either time.

 

Ali was sublime in Miami and Maine imo.

Liston had proven his durability previously - broken jaw vs Marshall, a broken nose vs Williams and taking hellacious punches otherwise.

Why call in Jones and Cooper when we’re talking Miami?

I mentioned momentum and growing domination during the first fight - you’ve simply returned to the obviously more abstract score card tallies after 6 rounds.

You’re assuming Liston took a dive in Maine - but that’s ignoring all the players who contributed to the chaos otherwise (including Ali himself).

Liston isn’t your fall guy for all that rubbish - he wasn’t even accommodated a count nor was Ali being duly penalised for not retreating to a neutral corner.

There is much sorely missing context - Liston didn’t quit - he got up after Ali finally gave him a modicum of distance to do so safely after the KD - Liston kept fighting - Walcott called it under advice from Nat Fleisher who had no official say in the matter.

All be it brief, Ali looked terrific during the time the fight lasted, phenomenally fast and gliding around the ring as if he was on a perfectly controlled hover board - a solid promise of maintained and increasing high quality if the fight had lasted longer.

Duran quit cold in New Orleans - no excuses but it was under very specific and highly unique circumstances.

Of course that doesn’t make Duran a quitter per se.

Scorecards were close for that fight also - but Ray was clearly taking control of the fight.

Foreman was “supposed” to crush an even older, past prime Ali also - didn’t happen -

Sonny has already passed on when Ali rolled George in Zaire - just was well - he was no longer available to be assigned his usual role as a “go to” fall guy.

 

I think calling it 3 rounds in 3 years is dramatic and cited as an excuse - he sparred and went to camp like everyone else he didn’t get off the couch. Yes 3 rounds in the ring on stage but hours on hours went into building the fighter and preparing Liston he was a pro he’d built his experience in a long career already.

 

So you’re saying that because Ali looked so good against Liston that it’s a notch on Sonnys belt? Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

As I said, I think his record holds up against any of them and he was probably pretty much smack in his prime at 27-28, so as good as or better, yes.

Now, for the third time I think, tell me whom among the guys Louis beat who had a better record?

Also, explain how Machen not Patterson would be the best Liston beat?

 

Shavers and Lyle, if ypu're referring to any of them, were bigger but doesn't have Floyd's resume and also did worse against Quarry, so how were they better? Because they looked mean?

Because I'm hoping you're not thinking of MacFoster.

 

What growing momentum? Here are the official cards.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing-co...orecards-from-miami-beach-bout/a/7115-80073.s

One judge gave the first round to Ali and the sixth round to Ali. The judge gave Liston the second, the third he had even, the fourth he gave to Liston, and the fifth he gave to Liston by 2 points.

Another judge gave the first to Ali, the second to Liston, the third to Ali, the fourth and fifth to Liston and the sixth to Ali.

That's how the fight went. Back and forth. The most "momentum" either had was Liston getting 10 points on that first judge's card in four of the six rounds.

Ali only managed to win two rounds in a row on one card the whole fight. There was no momentum or "growing" domination.

Liston lost first round and the sixth round on one official card and quit fighting.

Again, what momentum?


And the second fight lasts two minutes before Liston started to look for a spot on the floor and roll around.

He didn't fight at all in the rematch.

Liston didn't prove his durability in either fight. He simply folded. Quit. Twice. The second time embarrassingly so.

That's the tenth best heavyweight ever challenging for the title? What an utterly pathetic challenge.

Can't cut off the ring. Can't slip a jab. Not throwing back. Eats each right hand the 23-year-old throws. Starts looking for the floor after the second or third right lands in the first round?

What a beast Liston was. Audley Harrison was more impressive against David Haye.

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I just posted the video.

Liston wasn't even looking at Ali when he was on a knee and then did that super fake "fall down" a second time. Ali was behind him "in the neutral" corner when Liston decided to go down a second time. Ali didn't come back around until Sonny was on his back for the second time (from that one punch, apparently)

And Liston didn't "keep" fighting. How many punches did he throw after he got up? Is ZERO punches thrown fighting back?

When Liston got up, he knew he'd been on the floor for close to 20 seconds and figured (like most fighters would) that the fight would be stopped. But the ref turned around and walked away from him, and Ali came in and started throwing punches, so Liston just started ducking. He wasn't fighting back. And Liston didn't complain when the ref ran back over and stopped it. It was supposed to be stopped when he first got up.

It was pathetic.

And Sonny was the favorite that night, too. Apparently, Ali didn't win over too many people with his performance in their first fight, given the fact Ali wanted to quit, too, at one point.

If Ali was actually IN his prime, I can only imagine how bad Liston would've looked, considering how hard Sonny tanked it against the 22 and 23-year-old Ali.

One of the most pathetic attempts at trying to "win" the heavyweight title in the history of the sport.

 

Per your last paragraph because it’s the easiest. I said arguably - I don’t think that’s too weird or strange when you consider what Patterson had achieved when Liston beat him.

So first I have to ask how are you deciding how a fighter is better? That’s a very objective thing and important especially concerning the Young Patterson we are talking about who you’re saying is better than anyone on Louis’s record.

I will address your second paragraph soon be patient.

 

I have consistently referred to record to determine a fighters quality and I have repeatedly asked you to provide those with better if atterson's was so weak.

And "young Patterson"? He was 27 and had been champion for the better part of six years when he first faced Liston.

He had experience, had overcome his first major setback when he regained his title, had filled out but was still very quick. Quite arguably this was him at his absolute peak.

Actually, this is the first time I reflect on that you can say this, which is rare that you can say about a champion that loses his title.