Is sugar Ray Leonard the greatest welterweight?

Perhaps, Pepe, Leonard was more prone to throw fancy flurries when coming up and making a name for him myself. I couldn't say myself, since I haven't seen his early fights. I kind of doubt it, though, because even though Leonard was very aware of his image he was in the end all about the bottom line - getting that win. He seems to serious to me to jeopardize that.

As a mature fighter he sure didn't leave any room for error. The highlights from his title fights are mostly of him sparking the other guy out.

 

Clearly a great fighter,,,,,,,,,,but not the greatest at Welterweight.

There was 'bit' of fear of him, when he sat down to talk to Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas
after watching 'Pipino' one punch Harold Volbrecht into a KO 5 victim.

He was in awe of Pipino's power, no question.

 

Leonard-Cuevas didn't happen because of Don King.

 

A little peak at Sugar Ray Robinson,

Thru October 1941, the 20 1/2 year-old 'Sugar Man' had complied a 25-0-0 (20 KO's)
record.

Victories over Fritzie Zivic (W Dec 10) on October 31, 1941 and (KO 10) on January 26, 1942
put Ray Robinson at 27-0-0 (21 KO's).

Now Fritzie Zivic was no 'easy mark', as he had only lost his Welterweight Championship
on July 29, 1941 - only 3-months earlier.

In both bouts with the vicious fighting 'Fritzie', the Sugar Man was out-weighed by 7 lbs.,
and facing a guy with a record of 123-26-5.

Ray Robinson's next '13-bouts' and all wins, were against heavier opponents, inlcluding
defeating a 158 lb. Jake Lamotta (Sugar Ray weighed only 145 lbs.).

By the December 1942, the 21 1/2 year-old - Ray Robinson was 40-0-0 (29 KO's), and so
far ahead of the other Welterweights, that they just should have handed the 'Sugar Man'
the Championship.

 

Amazing record. Even before he reached his prime he had done major work. The consistancy boggles the mind. I didnt realize the Zivic fight was only 3 months after he had lost his Welterweight Title.

 

Leonard wouldve boxed circles around Cuevas.

 

It's been (poorly) stated that Leonard somehow avoided him because he feared Cuevas' power. It's all total bull****, really. King used his influence with Sillyman to get Roberto up front with SRL before Cuevas would get a chance to unify anything. He would've boxed circles around him.. Before stopping him in the mid-rounds.

 

Ray beat the man who beat the man.....

El Radar :yep :deal

 

Yeah, MAG doesn't like that sort of stuff.

 

It's okay, I guess.

147

Gavilan x2
Armstrong
Zivic x2
Angott x2 (First fight at lightweight)
Bell x2
Wilson
Jannazzo x4
Docusen
Zanelli
Doyle
Costner
Fusari
Delicurtti
Rubio
Motisi

160

LaMotta x5
Fullmer
Basilio
Turpin
Olson x4
Graziano
Villemain
Castellani
Abrams
Belloise
Basora
Barnes


Keepin' it guys who were rated at the time. Likely a bunch missing too..


Boxer Weight 1st-Rated Last-Rated Months-Rated Best-Rating
Abrams, Georgie 160 1938/08 1947/10 055 01*
Angott, Sammy 135-147 1938/07 1946/04 081 00
Archer, Joey 160 1963/03 1967/05 051 01*
Armstrong, Henry 126-147 1935/01 1945/06 123 00
Barnes, Ray 160 1950/08 1953/02 018 04*
Basilio, Carmen 147-160 1953/06 1962/02 087 00
Basora, Jose 160 1942/09 1949/08 048 02*
Bell, O'Neill 160 1948/01 1948/05 002 07*
Bell, Tommy 147 1944/01 1949/02 051 01*
Belloise, Steve 147-160 1940/06 1950/06 096 01*
Berger, Maxie 135-147 1938/05 1944/02 033 05*
Burns, Charley 135 1935/07 1935/11 005 05*
Castellani, Rocky 160 1949/02 1957/02 059 01*
Castiglione, Nick 135 1941/11 1943/02 005 08*
Costner, George 147 1945/11 1951/02 032 01*
Curcio, Joe 147 1946/09 1946/09 001 10*
Delannoit, Cyrille 160 1948/08 1949/06 011 02*
Dellicurti, Vic 147-160 1939/12 1945/09 022 06*
Docusen, Bernard 135-147 1945/07 1950/10 050 01*
Downes, Terry 160-175 1960/09 1966/03 052 00
Doyle, Jimmy 147 1945/06 1947/08 019 02*
Dupas, Ralph 135-147 1953/09 1965/03 136 01*
Dykes, Bobby 147-160 1949/10 1956/02 033 01*
Fullmer, Gene 160 1955/08 1964/07 107 00
Fusari, Charley 147 1946/11 1952/03 049 02*
Gavilan, Kid 147-160 1948/01 1958/09 106 00
Ghnouly, Joe 130-135 1931/11 1936/04 031 05*
Giardello, Joey 160-175 1952/10 1968/03 152 00
Graziano, Rocky 147-160 1944/09 1952/10 083 00
Guggino, Carl "Red" 135 1937/02 1938/03 006 06*
Harrington, Stan 147-160 1963/09 1967/06 035 02*
Harris, Ossie 160 1945/09 1945/10 002 10*
Hecht, Gerhard 175 1953/03 1958/03 061 01*
Hernandez, Art 160 1965/11 1966/03 002 10*
Hernandez, Ferd 160 1966/12 1968/10 023 02*
Hudson, Cecil 147-160 1943/02 1947/12 006 02*
Jannazzo, Izzy 147-160 1935/03 1944/08 066 01*
Jones, Ralph Tiger 160 1953/02 1960/08 047 03*
LaMotta, Jake 160-175 1942/07 1953/02 121 00
Leahy, Mick 160 1965/01 1965/03 003 10*
Lee, Don 160 1984/04 1986/12 032 04*
Lello, Pete 135 1939/02 1941/04 016 03*
Levine, Artie 160-175 1946/05 1949/04 012 06*
Martin, Georgie 147 1941/01 1944/02 006 10*
Maxim, Joey* 175-200+ 1941/02 1956/09 148* 00
McDaniels, Jimmy 147 1943/06 1945/08 019 03*
Mims, Holley 160 1952/02 1960/06 057 02*
Motisi, Tony 147 1942/05 194304 009 06*
Moyer, Denny 147-160 1959/04 1972/06 099 01*
Nettlow, Al 135-147 1939/04 1943/02 006 08*
Olson, Carl Bobo 160-175 1949/08 1967/05 139 00
Pender, Paul 160 1959/06 1964/02 050 00
Quarles, Norment 135 1937/01 1939/02 012 08*
Rangel, Sheik 147 1943/02 1944/02 009 05*
Rindone, Joe 160-175 1951/06 1954/02 004 07*
Rubio, Norman 147 1941/09 1944/02 010 09*
Secreet, Sammy 147 1942/01 1946/08 006 06*
Servo, Marty 147 1942/02 1947/02 022 00
Shapiro, Maxie 126-135 1940/07 1945/02 018 03*
Stretz, Hans 160-175 1954/02 1958/02 019 02*
Taylor, Chuck 147 1946/06 1946/11 004 07*
Turner, Earl 147 1942/11 1948/09 011 04*
Turpin, Randy 160-175 1950/03 1958/02 065 00
Tygh, Jimmy 135 1939/02 1940/09 002 09*
Villemain, Robert 147-175 1947/09 1953/02 046 02*
Wade, Aaron Tiger 160 1945/12 1946/02 003 07*
Wallace, Frankie 126-135 1932/01 1938/02 020 02*
Wilson, Jackie (L.A.) 135-147 1940/01 1947/04 032 02*
Zannelli, Ralph 147-160 1938/02 1953/02 018 03*
Zengaras, George 135 1937/09 1939/11 007 08*
Zivic, Fritzie 147 1936/08 1945/08 095 00

 

What's with the whole knocking of shoe-shining,anyway? It isn't a tactic neccasarily used just to steal rounds(DERP,HAGLER WUZ ROBBED!!!! DERP!!!!); Earlier on in his career,Leonard usually used it as a way to simply entertain the audience - especially in fights that he was in complete control of.Great way to sell yourself to the casual audience and show off a bit.


Nothing wrong with self-indulgence,yo.

 

Ray Leonard would have an extremely difficult time with Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, especially in Mexico City.

That bout was proposed to be in Mexico City, with an estimated attendance of 80,000.

Ray Leonard doesn't leave Mexico without a 'broken jaw'.

Facts,

After negotiations with Ray Leaonard vs Roberto Duran I - stalled in April 1980, talks began with
WBA Champion - Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas. It appeared that a June 1980 bout could be done for
Mexico City.

But, once the WBA (Panama-based) got wind of it, Commander Ruben Parade', a big wheel in the
Panamanian Government contacted Pipino Cuevas' Manager - Lupe Sanchez, and told him that in no
way would the WBA approve that fight.

If Pipino fought Ray Leonard, he would not only be be 'stipped' of the WBA title, he would be
suspended for 'life' by the WBA.

The next day, Pipino Cuevas suffered a 'cut' in training..............

 

Pepe,I was under the impression that the WBA didn't want that fight to happen because Ray was a free agent and Cuevas was a good earner who did as he was told.
They felt Ray would be of little or no use to them because,despite his earning potential,he wasn't a "team player"

I'm very much an admirer of Cuevas but Ray fought and beat better fighters,and I don't think this would be close at all,especially in 1980.
Only my opinion though.No more or less valid than anyone else's.

 

Sugar Ray Robinson

As of October 30, 1941

25-0-0 (20 KO's) campaining as a Lightweight/Light-Welterweight.

Starting with his 'first bout' with Fritzie Zivic (former Welterweight Champion)
on October 31, 1941 thru December 19, 1946 -

Sugar Ray went 48-1-1 (30 KO's) - while campaigning as a Welterweight. Now with a
record of 73-1-1 (50 KO's), the #1 Welterweight finally got his chance at the
Welterweight Championship versus the 'talented' Tommy Bell.

While many will agree, that 'Sugar Ray' was the best Welterweight in the World back
in December 1942 (at age 21 1/2), he had to wait until December 1946 (age 25 1/2)
to get an opportunity at the Champiuonship.

 

ESB, if you want to understand and watch Sugar Ray Robinson, YOUTUBE to
"Reputations Sugar Ray Robinson Documentary "
a 47 minute feast of Ray Robinson ,the GREATESt all around fighter I ever saw...
Watch it and this thread question would be superfluous...Great doc...