Is the elephant in the room that Holyfield wouldn't have been able to make HW without the PEDs?

Early on in his heavyweight career he beat some very large and powerful heavyweights while being under 210. Buster Douglas, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and I believe he was 205 when he fought Bowe the first time in what was one of the greatest heavyweight title fights ever.

I think some would argue that the PED's worked against him and robbed him of his lightning fast combinations that he threw early on in his career.

Bottom line he was a special fighter that didn't need those PED's but will have to live with his shitty choices. He certainly had the will and skill to overcome his size disadvantages just like Uysk is doing now. The difference is Uysk has to fight even bigger men these days.

 

Good question!
First to reply tothe last post-Evander under but near 210 was still well after Haney helped him allegedly gain 20-22 lbs. (he said 212-214) in 5 weeks.
So even that lighter HW Evander was mucho juiced in preparation.
Next it is unintentionally ironic that you said "Don't get me wrong, all the top guys were on gear..."
That IS wrong.
Many either used regularly or dabbled.
None of us has any reasonable evidence if it was even most guys.
Nor is it at all fair to assume guilt absent specific evidence.

To your question, I do not think your intent was literally what you said-clearly he could have "made" HW.
But made it & been as strong, muscular, successful?
No.

Also Haney did not say that the weight gain was all muscle.
He just said how much he gained.
Someone can be significantly heavier in large part due to some extra food in the system, different hydration/water retention, gained at least some fat...

But in 5 weeks, the fact is that almost nobody NATURAL can gain more than just under or over couple of pounds of pure, new, skeletal muscle.
Oh maybe someone with the size to put on muscle-vertically, & per square inch due massive bones, maybe a man like Shaquille O'Neill could break 3.

Holyfield needed more muscle & strength to compete with the Big Boys.
Already having juiced when over 200, it was worth it to sacrifice some speed & workrate to compete with the SHWs more effectively.
Hence his weight gain-which appeared to be basically pure muscle-between the 1st & 2nd Bowe fight.

BY THE WAY for all those who insist that everyone always juiced at least those daaaze...
We should ask Tim Witherspoon who posts here!
He seems gracious & very honest, think he will say even HE-infinitely closer to the fight game than most all of us-that he knows everyone juiced?!?

 

What people need to remember (or know) about PEDs are they are not “one size fits all.” For a start there are many, many different ones that work in different ways and for different body types and for different sports.

But the bottom line is when taken correctly and under the best supervision, they enhance and improve sports performances…the definition is in the name. You train for speed, they’ll get you speed quicker and more efficiently. You want size and strength…ditto. You want more explosive power, they can help you with that. You want big, showy muscles that will impress the girls or the boys…you got it. But all this comes with a caveat: You gotta train correctly for the sport or performance that you’re competing in. Holyfield didn’t just train to bulk up and be heavier and stronger. Yes, he needed more size and strength but he also wanted to enhance his explosive power, so he trained accordingly and the PEDs helped him get there quickly and more effectively than if he did it naturally. His diet obviously needed to be on point too…and the results were all to see. Did his new muscle size slow him down a tad? Hmm… now there’s a question. I say not where it mattered. I’m sure under the guidance of sports scientists and a guy like Haney, his muscle and strength gains were designed perfectly for the type of speed he needed in the boxing ring…the explosive type.

Personally speaking…and I obviously could be wrong, and a natural Evander may have found a way… but I doubt he would’ve beaten Bowe or Tyson in the way he did without PEDs. He would have remained a quick and excellent boxer, and that quickness would have at least matched Tyson’s and befuddled Bowe, but with that percentage less of power in his punching, that percentage less than the explosiveness he generated, he may well have lost at least one fight against a post prison Tyson and all 3 comfortably against Bowe.

Natural Holyfield was itching to fight Tyson in the late 80s and I remember wondering whether his natural speed and quick combos would bamboozle Tyson, leading to Holyfield outboxing him, and winning a points decision. But I never in a million years thought he’d have enough to stop Tyson or KO him. Not ever….!

 

I don’t think James Toney was on the gear but there came a point where he had to live in a sauna for a week with no food just to get down to heavyweight.

 

I am surprised you say that about Toney.
Tell me if I am wrong, but I assume it is more likely you do not know about his positive tests, than you think he was innocent & it was a fluke or mistake.
Here are just a couple of sources, the first also discusses his original + test for a basic steroid Nandoline.

You see me often defending guys who are accused with no real evidence.
Or absurd assumptions that everyone must have juiced at least in one era.
But while there are occasions when folks test + & it is an accident or something is contaminated, you do not believe this is usually more than an excuse & lie, do you?
[url]James Toney Gets Steroid Suspension Reduced - Boxing News
https://www.*******.com › james-toney-gets-steroi...[/url]
Aug 6, 2007 — It was not the first time that Toney failed a post-fight drug test. In 2005, he tested positive for a steroid called nandrolone in a test that ...

• [url]
  Freddie Roach knew James Toney was on steroids, while he ...
  https://www.*******.com › non-stop-boxing › 350...[/url]

Dec 27, 2009 — LOS ANGELES -- Three-time champion James Toney tested positive for steroids and could face a one-year suspension from boxing.

Toney fighting way above his natural, fit weight means it was more likely he would do this.
Do not let the fact that he also got pretty fat deter you from accepting his guilt IF you feel the evidence is there.
Many guys use & get stronger; not all seek to be lean, or take things to, say, like A-Rod in Baseball maximize strength without putting on much bulk or even muscle...
He needed the added strength at HW & cheated.

 

I was making a fat joke.

I didn’t know donuts were performance-enhancing.

 

I almost competely agree!

Although I feel Tyson was a bit faster, including of feet, certainly Tyson's prime compared to Holy b4 he juiced.
Yes he trained for that quickness & explosive power.
However he had to sacrafice at least a bit-at least of potential endurance & work rate-just by carrying the extra muscle.
Holyfield started when CW maxed out at 190.

But it was worth it for strength, & likely extra punch resistance.
Yes if he never took it even with the clinching he would have lost at least once.
Likely both with no headbutts.

 

Of course I saw & appreciate the joke!
But it could not be told that you were not serious in the first part of your statement.

 

Yep, some endurance would be sacrificed with the extra muscle, that’s true.
As for the speed of both Tyson and Holyfield you could well be right. Tyson was the quickest HW I had ever seen…I hadn’t seen Prime Ali and Patterson at that time, I’d heard of them obviously but not witnessed them…but Cruiserweight Holy was definitely no slouch either. It would certainly have been a very different fight from what either was used to.

 

I remember for the tommy Morrison weigh in against ray Mercer, Mercer's team noticed tommy had black head pimples on his back. They told Ray that he was on the gear and wouldn't survive after the first four rounds due to gassing out. Mercer's iron chin and Tommy's show offy muscles lead to an interesting first four rounds. Then when he gassed in 5, ray went in for the knockout. I swear he coulda damaged him permanently because of the slow dumb ref!

 

So I guess it's either train for the sport deliberately what you're out to gain, don't neglect cardio while on peds, and save the show offy muscles for the beach!

 

Wow I did not know that story!
Unfortunately the juicer could have won, had lasted a bit longer, taken stuff that had a little better effect on stamina...

 

Super interesting stuff and a great post!

It isn't a given Evander was natural before, either. He just didn't know how to pack on muscle using supplements and diet, boxers tend to do too much cardio and not eat enough to gain effectively. The base muscle growth rate among natural people is like 2 to 5 lbs per year with dedicated training and eating. Once you've eclipsed your beginner gains, which are maybe twice that in the same period, it slows down to about 5 lbs per year max (and it's really more like 3 typically). Growing a pound of muscle takes a long time. And every person gets to a point pretty quickly, almost always within 4 years of optimal training, where they won't grow much more muscle. Evander was training at this level before for many years, so it would be hard for him to pack on even a couple pounds. That 20lbs couldn't have been all muscle, but if 12lbs of it was, that's years of natural perfect training for a person his age who had never touched a weight before.

 

That is all pretty astute, except you understate how fast people can gain naturally.
Google maximum natural muscle potential or growth & the likes of Mcdonald & my favorite, Casey Butts (real name).
With average-excellent potential, newbies can gain something like 15-24 lbs. in the FIRST year.
That is assuming they are not somewhat developed from manual or farm labor...
Estimates vary, but potential depends upon what you cite, + also the size, especially bone structure, & androgen levels of the individual.
Next year that will be maybe up to 10 lbs.
Then 4-5.
Then 2-3...
Then negligible.

I recall Butts saying 88% of your total potential can be done in 3 years.
97% within 5.
Of course all this depends upon about the most efficient training & nutrition possible.
And no times of just coasting or maintenance; constantly working on progressive resistance & new types of stimulation & overload.

STILL this is far behind what especially an effective juicer can do.
In how fast they can synthesize muscle, or total capacity to build it.
Butts wrote that the average man has the potential to have 30-40 lbs. more muscle than...the typical man of his size, height + bone structure.

I am sure there are outliers that have less & more potential-especially the former, some just do not have the structure & hormonal level for bulking up that much.
That might not seem like a great deal OR much variation.
But that much actual skeletal muscle above what is ordinary-not water, fat, connective tissue, capillaries...
Is a great deal.

Just less than we expect when looking at many on steroids, HGH, IGF & other potentiators.