Is the elephant in the room that Holyfield wouldn't have been able to make HW without the PEDs?

This is a good argument. I liked Holy more when he boxed the big guys than when he tried to blast them out. It might be possible that he'd have been better off without the peds; with more speed and less power.

 

I remember seeing an interview with Don Turner where he talked about how bulking up hurt Evander as a fighter when he was training him. Turner was an old school trainer and very much like a lot of the old trainers I knew that were anti weight lifting because they though it was a detriment to hand speed/combination punching. When I think back about Evander I remember him being a way more deadly fighter when he closer to 200 pounds then when he was 220 and more of a slugger. It seems like after he left Benton and Duva he really got into the weights and started trading with everyone instead of using his boxing ability.

 

He may have been a little more skilled.
But I think fighting the much bigger guys-or Tyson-he was better in absolute terms because even with less work rate, speed & endurance, the added strength & muscle-for punching, punch resistance & grappling-was worth the trade off.

How was he more dominant not much over 200 lbs.?
Aged Foreman & Holmes, competitive. Rocked against Cooper, slightly heavier at 210, but less than later against others like Tyson & Bowe, when at least 217-of pure muscle.

Here is what happened the first time vs. Bowe at 205...
In what would become one of the greatest heavyweight boxing matches of all time, Bowe defeated Holyfield by [url]unanimous decision[/url], winning all three judge's scorecards by scores of 117–110, 117–110 and 115–112. Though he had been a 7–5 favorite, Holyfield had difficulty trading punches with the bigger, stronger and younger Bowe, Bowe landed 53% of his 248 thrown punches while Holyfield only managed to land 39% of his 161 thrown.

Then at 217 he seemingly had more resistance & come back energy at 217 & won.
For example..."Holyfield would dominate round 8, reopening Bowe's wounds with a five-punch combination. Knowing he was behind in the cards, Bowe would become more aggressive in rounds 9, 10 and 11, however in rounds 10 and 11, Holyfield would finish the final 30 seconds of each round by hitting Bowe with several combinations, winning five of the judges six scores for those two rounds".

Don't you think that while he may have been better as a Pure Boxer lighter-meaning with less muscle in his case...
And perhaps that against guys no bigger than him he would be at least as good...

That against the naturally bigger, stronger men, he needed the extra bulk to be quite as effective as he was?

 

This is absolutely ridiculous wishful thinking to salvage Holyfeild's reputation in your own mind. PEDs are expensive, dnagerous, and illegal. No one does them to lessen their performance.

What is more, that is not how it works. Women aren't faster because they have less muscle and weigh less, for example. Perfromance enhancing drugs are performance enhancing drugs.

 

I think you are misunderstanding me or maybe what I wrote came out wrong. I am not excusing him for using PEDS. I'm simply saying he was a great fighter before he used them. I grew up watching him fight all the way from his amateur days and remember full well how great he was. He is judged and rightfully so for cheating later on in his career but in his cruiserweight/early heavyweight days he was a handful.

 

Re-read my post. Don Turner who worked with him for years even said that Holyfield was better before he bulked up. I 'm well aware that he lost the first fight to Bowe who was in his absolute prime and a beast in the first fight. Sure Holyfield won the second one while being heavier but look at the condition Bowe was in that fight. He wasn't the same guy. Also, I believe Holyfield ALWAYS would have beaten Tyson even when he was just over 200 pounds. He simply was the superior fighter and would have survived Tyson's early onslaught to systematically beat him down like he did in their first fight.

The bulked up, roided out Holyfield beat a coked out shot post prison Tyson and a fat version of Bowe. When I feel like watching a Holyfield fight I always find myself watching his early fights before he got all jacked up.

 

I do not need to re-read your post-I recall exactly what you said, including about Don Turner.
That is one man's opinion-& he could have been sharper but not as good against big stronger guys.

It is true that Bowe was porky in the second fight.
But bulk can help with that, although Bowe's condition makes things ambiguous.

None of this addresses that Holyfield was often not a more effective when a lighter HW: Ancient Foreman & Holmes were a couple of my examples.

Tyson was absolutely not "shot" vs. Holyfield.
Not prime, ut still among the best in the world, whether he was on coke exactly then for 1 or both fights I do not know.
"Shot" Tyson was in the next century.

I am not in the fairly extreme camp that Evander even at 205 would beat ANY Tyson.
That Holyfield would have a good shot at early '90's Tyson.
Even when they fought-& the case would be much stronger if Tyson was really "shot"...
Tyson provided a challenge, might have won one without the disorienting headbutt...

And Holyfield needed his masterful clinching & smothering.
Which was ependent on his significantly greater strength than a few years ago.

 

What version are you referring to? The 190 lbs version before 1988 or the ca 210 lbs version 1988-1992? I think he'd be a bit too small at 190 lbs at HW, but around 210 lbs was where we usually saw him at his HW best. The version in Bowe 2 at 217 lbs was perhaps the very best, though, but after that he started slipping.

 

Toney tested positive, so he was on it.

 

Theres nothing "elephant in the room" about Holyfield's PED use on this board. The elephant in the room isn't discussed. Holyfield using PEDs is brought up in every single thread about him, as well as these periodic threads devoted to the subject. Obviously people don't bring it up in their sports media puff interviews with him these days, but has any boxer ever been MORE caught using PEDs?

 

I believe Evander was a natural CW and was at his best as a fighter at 190. With that said, 190 is to small for him to truly be effective at heavyweight in that era or any era after that. I guess all I'm saying is that he looked way better in the lower 200's before he was so muscular. I'm strictly talking about his boxing ability in particular his combination punching.

A lot of what I don't like about his later career is the fact that I know he was cheating and I prefer to remember him differently. I feel the same way about James Toney who I love as a fighter. I don't care to watch anything post Jirov fight because it is obvious he was on PEDs which also caused him to start having a lot of injuries. Just like Holyfield, Toney was a guy that didn't need that ****. They were both amazing fighters without it.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree and bow out of the conversation for a couple of things you said. First, Don Turner knows more about boxing than all of us put together and I see exactly what he is taking about in regards to Holyfield's performance.

Second, we don't agree when it comes to 96' Tyson. Too me he was a three round fighter/one trick pony at that point and was matched against guys like Seldon, Bruno, etc. That had some dog in them and would fold. I agree he was still one of the best in the world at that point because of his power but put 96' Tyson in with a truth machine like Ray Mercer and you would see a similar result as to what Evander did to him. Tyson was not the same guy he was pre-prison but with that said I will go to my grave thinking he never would beat Holyfield and I am not alone in that thinking.

We probably won't ever see eye to eye on this which is fine. I have spent my life involved in boxing in one way or another and am not interested in weightlifting, PEDS. I'm the guy that likes to sit back and watch a guy like Uysk box circles around a muscle bound giant like Joshua. My hope is that Uysk never abandons the skill and technique that made him a champion for some PEDS and muscles. Evander shouldn't have taken that **** and neither should any other boxer. It's not the UFC.

 

He could have beaten most of the heavyweights of the day at 200lbs,

 

Nah Holyfield was a established cruiserweight when he decided to move up so he only had 10 -15 pounds to put on to make heavyweight. I be more inclined to look at Spinks than Holyfield. He was a pro career light heavyweight an coming up to 30 when he decided to move up to challenge Holmes. Thats more than 25 pounds he had to put on an not that long a time.

Just because Holyfield was muscular an shredded whiles Spinks lacked any real muscle definition people automatically assume it was Holyfield an definitely not Spinks on Peds but you only have to look at the fat an out of shape guys been busted for Peds nowadays to see it’s never that clear cut

 

It has to do with Evan Fields thing, I'd say. Spinks never got caught up in anything like that.