Is there any scenario in which Patterson beats any prime version of Liston?

What was the mistake? Where did you read this?

 

It's in the press coverage of Liston's death. Patterson doesn't go into further detail about his mistake, but when he says he fought Liston's fight I assume he means he tried to take him head on rather than boxing defensively (Zora Folley made a very similar comment about his own meeting with Liston).

https://ibb.co/mSg8PcX

 

I actually can see FOTC Frazier beating Foreman easier than Liston ever losing to Patterson. But that's just me.

 

Maybe if a crazed fan threw a banana peel into the ring and if Sonny Liston slipped on it, then maybe Floyd Patterson would have had a chance provided he wears his Marty Marshall Halloween costume.

 

Maybe in a hypothetical H20 matchup, not a mispelling but an H20 matchup, Ha Ha.

 

I can envision a scenario where Floyd Patterson gets beyond the 1st round with a Prime Sonny Liston, but not much beyond that, and no way can I imagine Floyd winning the fight.

 

I agree that Sonny knew that he’d slowed down a lot and perhaps, more significantly, he was also aware that he didn’t have the tank for longer fights - say good for 6-7 rounds but Liston needing to win the fight inside of that duration otherwise he would become exponentially more vulnerable .

I personally don’t see sufficient evidence to suggest that he would’ve precluded legitimate discussions/offers to fight Patterson, Ellis or Frazier, for the right money, as you say.

Of course, on the way to such fights, the risk/reward factor would’ve been more heavily weighed against other contenders who presented as more risk than reward.

 

In other words, even though Liston was washed up he still had to be fought carefully. Even when he was 40 or 45 years old, you couldn't take a chance on trading punches with him. You had to stay away until the late rounds in hopes he'd tire.

 

Floyd was very smart with Chuvalo. Uncertainty with his stamina over the Championship Distance cost him with Ellis, but I still think Patterson won. He was younger yet more experienced than Liston. With the new confidence that he could go 15 rounds, I think he likely makes his first defense against Sonny to validate his WBA Title, and this time flips the script like he did with Ingo, drowning Liston in deep water. Guys like Leotis, Marshall and Machen had already proved sub 200 pounders could hang with Sonny, hurt and even knock him out.

Patterson was very good in the early 1970's. He won over ten rounds five times, nine rounds once, and he could get up to win.

However, prime for prime, regardless of what tactics Floyd uses, he simply wouldn't be able to avoid getting hit, and Chuck Wepner is emphatic that Liston was a much harder puncher than Foreman. Henry Clark only rated Shavers over Sonny in punching power, after his rematch with Earnie (and Clark dealt with more noted sluggers than Chuvalo).

 

BTW, I just watched a bit of Patterson with Ellis, slowed down to 0.25 on YouTube. With 43 seconds left to go in round 14, Jimmy misses a right as Floyd ducks and counters with his own hooking right to the chin, knocking Ellis down, but Harold Valan was on the opposite side, so from his vantage point, it looks like a slip as Jimmy pulls down on Patterson. (This is why there are three judges surrounding the ring.) Doesn't matter on the rounds basis, as Floyd wins it anyway, but Howard Cosell did tell it like it was, having Patterson well in control of their match.

At just over a minute left in round four, Floyd severely buckled him with an earlier right hand, dipping his target's knees so low that Patterson's follow up hook went overhead as Jimmy fell forward into a clinch. In a rematch, Floyd would've knocked him out. In fact, they were both idle through 1969, just when Frazier hit his peak with Quarry I. Ellis-Patterson II should've taken place in 1969.

Was referee and sole judge Valan crooked, incompetent, or both? Legend has it that Ellis manager Angelo "Mob" Dundee paid Valan $5,000.00 to score it for Jimmy. Purportedly, this rigged outcome resulted in Sweden's decades long ban of professional boxing.

 

Sonny was carrying too much power and Floyd didn't have the defense to avoid it. The only option for Floyd is banging Sonny out before Sonny bangs him out. Is it possible? Sure, the first round is a rough round and we see solid chinned fighters get dropped hard in that round a lot (Even Sonny himself vs Ali 2, although I get that it's disputed whether he threw the fight). Patterson throws combos, he might be able to do something but one thing that is very underrated about Liston is his defense. His head movement is some of the best I've seen in a heavyweight and he is crafty on the inside. The stars would have to align for Floyd to win this one. One person who knew this was Cus.

 

Revisiting this after some thought … it would still be a serious stretch but Floyd would be in great shape, he always was, while did Liston really have it in him to get into serious fighting shape both physically and mentally like he was in 1962, in 1969 or 1970 at God knows what age? If Floyd could just get past the damn first round, but it’s still problematic for him keeping Liston off him.

 

I can imagine a scenario in which 1968-69 Liston gets offered chances to fight contenders -- at discount rates. He hadn't the leverage to demand big purses. And looking at it from his perspective he'd been screwed enough. He wasn't willing to be fleeced again. I can see that possibility. We're not insiders. We don't know the nuances that are present in these business negotiations. Who was managing him during his last years? Dick Sadler was his trainer. Who was his manager? Did he have one? The Nilon brothers had been his managers of record but as I understand it they jumped ship after the Lewiston debacle. I suspect he was his own manager near the end but retained a lawyer to handle contract negotiations. Has anyone read that Sammy Davis Jr. was somehow involved with him?

 

Yeah, I think Floyd has to hang at least until the 6 - 7 round mark with Old Sonny whose tank I see depleting quickly thereafter.

IF Floyd could manage that, then I could calculate a lot better chance of Patto swinging the fight to his favour - a big IF though.

The other thing I thought of was that - just the mere fact of Patterson being able to see out the first 1 or 2 rounds would do wonders for his confidence in real time - successfully breaking the curse of the previous two fights, so to speak.

 

Without checking to confirm, yeah, I would say that Saddler was the man - he was the one who responded to the claim of an alleged offer made by Dundee/Ellis to fight Liston.

Saddler responded to the claim stating that he did not receive any such offer - so that implies he was the point of contact for such offers and negotiations.