Is there anyone that is top 20 p4p without a notable past prime win?

On film he looks nice but his best win is either Gomez or a novice Nelson. Pat Codwell may also argue with his status as one of the greatest operators. His resume is a nice one. I’m not a very good history guy but his resume to me whatever that’s worth, doesn’t look better then the likes of say Saldivar (spelling?) JCC or Ruben. I think he’s near the top but not “The” guy.

 

Packey McFarland could count. He wasn't at his best against Gibbons, but I wouldn't call him past his prime.

 

I guess there is a degree of extrapolation of what Sanchez would’ve gone on to achieve built into his legend but his actual resume and performances therein were a very solid promise of what his future achievements might’ve likely have been if his life wasn’t cut short.

Sal had already answered for the most part some significant questions as they pertain to being an ATG - chin, speed, power, skill, self confidence, heart etc.

Nelson might’ve been a “novice” with 13 or so fights under his belt but he didn’t fight like one. A more mature, calm and technically predictable Nelson could’ve actually served Sanchez better - certainly a known quantity if they had rematched.

I think Sanchez’s proven greatness was the only thing that averted an upset win for Nelson.

Other fighters anywhere on the spectrum of greatness could’ve easily fallen to Nelson, and not least due to the shock factor of how great a fighter Azumah himself was.

Sanchez was like granite under extreme fire, coolly working Nelson out, slowly picking him apart and really, ultimately giving Azumah quite a beating.

 

Nelson was not a "great" fighter. I don't give Sal props for struggling with someone who went on to be a good fighter the person he fought was a novice who'd beaten no one of note.

 

Salvador Sanchez died very young. He is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Fair enough. Just me personally, I think Nelson did go on to prove himself a great fighter and that he actually fought a great fight vs Sal, experience notwithstanding.

Also, I’ve seen a lot of ATGs have their struggles with lesser fighters - particularly when the opponent is an unknown quantity and has a specifically troublesome style - eg Ali v Norton 1

Interesting to muse upon and breakdown exactly how any other “accepted” ATGs in the division would’ve have a much easier time than Sal did with that version of Nelson.

 

I think the Norton problem is Ali always had that glaring hole and Futch had a fighter he could use to exploit it. How many other guys tried to jab with Ali? I think that the issue with Nelson is that his rep is overblown, he made his bones beating Gomez. He lost to Martinez and beat him injured, he lost to Fenech when it mattered most. He is a good fighter, not a great one to me.

 

And he's not top twenty anyway.

 

Rocky Marciano

 

And it could be argued that he stepped up in weight and beat John Ruiz past prime. Roy was like 33-34 and hardly fighting at his best weight

 

If they’re in anyone’s Top 20, I’d think Tunney and Sanchez would be relevant to the discussion but obviously requiring due qualification.

They didn’t have any significant post prime victories but they also didn’t fail in attempting to achieve same.

Aside from Leonard, does the non attempt or failure to secure a significant post prime victory generally disqualify (due to unfulfilled “criterion”) a fighter from being considered for or being included in the top 20 p4p?

 

I don't know where I place Rocky, but I know a lot of people do place him in their Top 20. I think Moore rates above Cockell, LaStarza, and even the 1954 Charles. Charles had lost to Harold Johnson and Nino Valdes in 1953 whereas Moore had defeated Johnson in 1953 and Valdes in both 1953 and in 1955. I know Rocky was tired of fighting with Al Weill still in the picture and that he was complaining his back was bothering him, but I don't think you can make the case that he was past his prime based on his actual ring performance against Moore.

Anyway, I threw Marciano's name in the pot as a kind of joke since he never lost a fight and quit before he had the opportunity to have a post-prime career, at least in my opinion. I guess my sense of humor falls a bit short in this case!

 

Terry McGovern is a better possible fit than Salvador Sanchez for this thread. He’s conceivably a top 20 all-time, won his titles when he was really young and his prime was very short. Once he lost the featherweight title, I don’t think he had a significant ‘past prime’ win.

More knowledgeable posters could correct me on that, though.

 

From what I've seen he had a NWS win over Jimmy Britt which was well past his best.