Is there anything '74 Ali was better at than '67 Ali?

Had to show it more often.

The Ali that let Chuvalo wail on his midsection showed neglible adverse effect to the bodywork and was still capable of upping the work rate. Testimonies that he was peeing blood after the fight but looked comfy in there is evidence of his ability to take punishment before exile.

The Ali of 74 could take a body shot as good or better than anyone I've ever seen, but when did you see him be so nonchalant with it and maintain a high work rate?

Ultimately, he was caught more partly cos he didn't have the legs to dance and evade like he used to, partly cos his opponents were a higher calibre, but just cos you don't have to show it doesn't mean you never had it.

He showed as early as Cooper that he could recover quickly from a big punch and he showed against Liston that he could take big punches from an all time puncher - Liston's body work in the first fight and some of what he catches Ali with when visually impaired slow down and soften up many a fighter.

 

I don't mean to stop the conversation, but I can't really respond in a long form way right now, so I'll come back to this later if I get the chance.

Been good talking to you, Bokaj.

 

Cheers! And sorry if I'm a bit grumpy at times. Been through this subject quite a few times. Probably just should have left it alone.

I'll give you this in meantime. Seems Ali's Parkinsson already had started by '74:

 

There’s no contrary evidence and therefore no reason to suspect that 64-67 didn’t already possess the IQ and DURABILITY that he later had to display DUE to his post exile physical degradations.

In fact, Ali had already displayed a sufficient measure (for assessment and reasonable extrapolation purposes) of both attributes before the exile but why would he display more than was necessary or required during his peak?

An analogy if you will could be SRL. Though obviously vastly talented, until Montreal,
Ray was viewed as somewhat of a pretty boy who some suspected might fold under heavy duress and punishment. A view somewhat similar to that held re a very early career Ali.

Prior to the Brawl in Montreal, one could suggest that Rays skills relative to the opposition to date simply didn’t allow for Ray to need to have to display the full extent of his toughness.

Of course we ultimately saw the mettle and durability that Leonard immediately upheld in his first vs Duran.

Leonard didn’t “evolve” over a period of time to uphold those attributes - they were clearly always held in potential and upon demand, those attributes were fully peeled back.

 

Here are HLs of Ali vs Chuvalo 1966 (see below).

Ali, though at a then, career heaviest, 214 1/2 is still mobile enough but chooses to periodically weigh anchor, plant his feet and land well leveraged and clearly powerful punches.

Still, it was Chuvalo after all, which might’ve “stole”’from due assessment of how hard Ali was actually hitting him.

I think the true quality of Foreman’s chin (not yet fully revealed nor appreciated as at the time) also detracted from how hard Ali was hitting him from go to whoa in Zaire.

See 2:11 for a particularly powerful, audible salvo that has Chuvalo hurt and backing up. Beautiful.

Frazier was tough as nails but arguably, as compared to Chuvalo, that particular salvo and others that Ali landed during the fight would’ve had a more damaging effect on Joe.

Note also, as already mentioned, that Ali virtually invited George to belabour his body. Ali had been prepping for such defensive tactics at least as early as 1965 when prepping for the Liston rematch. We have footage to prove his.

So, first career Ali was already proving his durability without necessarily having to do so.

D’Amato described this tactic, Ali’s deliberate taking and expressly defending against Chuvalo’s offence as “Removing the bullets from Chuvalo’s gun”.

Also note that Ali is copping a number of outrageously low blows - without a whimper. Calling it as it was, as much as I like Chuvalo, he could be a very dirty fighter.

If Ali had engaged Frazier in the late 60s, Muhammad might’ve opted for “dancing weight” - as he like to call it.

If Ali elected to come in light in order to be expressly mobile during the whole fight, I think that would get the job done clearly.

However, if Ali came in that bit heavier (as he did against Chuvalo), sacrificing some mobility in order to sit down on his punches, I believe that would’ve got the job done also - but with that much more damage to Frazier.

Finally, if he had met Frazier earlier, I think Ali would’ve shortened up Joe’s absolute prime even earlier - just as he did in the actual FOTC.

I really can’t see 64-67 Ali losing to Frazier at all.

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The irony is Post Exile Ali was worse while his opponents for the most past were better. All these attributes he supposedly acquired in his Post Exile he would have acquired in the prime three and one half years he was prohibited from boxing.