Is there no film whatsoever of Harry Greb in an actual fight?

I have a serious question for you, why would I, for one, do that?

I do agree that if film was available it would open up a new and useful area to critique Greb, mind you the Jeanette film did Langford no harm in my opinion.

 

Dubblechin is clutching at straws and clearly has an agenda to knock Greb down a few pegs. I don't know what his bias is against Greb but it's obvious to an objective observer that he has one and it goes beyond just there is no film of him, so I can't be convinced he actually defeated all those hall of famers that he did.

 

He struggled with quite a few bums? In 300 fights he struggled with quite a few bums? GTFO now you are just talking out of your ass. We know how he did against hall of famers because the multitude of first hand accounts agree that he did well. You can go down the list of HOFers he had some interaction with professionally:

Carpentier avoided him like the plague and turned down the second highest purse of his career rather than face him.
Jack Delaney avoided him, moved up to LHW rather accept a title fight with Greb.
Jack Dillon lost two out of two to Greb, was dominated in both fights and not a single newspaper thought he won.
Tiger Flowers beat Greb two out of three. Both times were split decision victories which were highly disputed and very close. Their first fight when Greb was fresher Greb won the majority of newspaper opinions.
Mike Gibbons split two with Greb once when Greb was still green and the other when Gibbons was slightly faded.
Tommy Gibbons split four with Greb beating him twice in 10 rounds, once at home and once at Pittsburgh (there goes your little theory again) and lost one at Pittsburgh and the second most important fight of his (Tommy's) career over 15 rounds at MSG in a title eliminator in which he was thoroughly dominated.
Leo Houck lost three straight to Greb, including one at his hometown, the others were on neutral territory, not a single paper voted for Houck in any of those decisions.
Battling Levinsky lost six straight fights to Greb including one in Pittsburgh and one Philadelphia. I think MAYBE one of the newspapers in Philadelphia thought Levinsky won or got a draw out of all of the papers that covered all of their fights. For the record Levinsky was from Philly.
Tommy Loughran went 4-1-1 with Greb, losing one and drawing one in Philly. So even Loughran's hometown, where he was an absolute hero even at the age of 21 didnt think he beat Greb... New York where they hated Greb thought Greb won decisively in that bout. In fact the only time Loughran won was a disputed decision in Boston in which one newspaper headline called it a robbery, nevermind that Greb was past his prime at that point.
Billy Miske went 1-1-1 or 0-2-1 depending on which sources you prefer. The one that he may have won was in Greb's hometown, again, blowing your theory that Greb won all of these gifts at home.
Kid Norfolk went 1-0-1 or 1-1 with Greb depending on whether or not the one or two of the Pittsburgh accounts were reprints from another, already tabulated source. Even still Norfolk was 20 pounds heavier and after getting off to a good start finished the fight backed into a corner and covering up under heavy fire. Only one or two swing rounds are in dispute in this fight across every card counted. In their second fight the fight was so foul that barely resembled a boxing match. Reports differ on who started it and who was worse but it matters little. Greb was hit after the bell when he turned his back to walk to his corner. He retaliated and was DQd. The local boxing commissioner stated that he expected the ruling to be overturned but when it was suggested that Boston bring back both fighters to restage the match officials decided they didnt want anymore Greb-Norfolk contests and banned both men leaving Greb with an unjust DQ on his record, the only DQ of his career.
Mike O'Dowd fought Greb in his own hometown and the best he could do, as champion, was eke out 3 of the 6 newspaper decisions against a Greb who was so eager to make weight that he spent all night sweating off in a turkish bath and so far overshot his mark that he weighed in at 155 pounds, nearly 15 pounds lighter than he had been weighed just a week before. Even the worlds middleweight champion (and a good one at that) couldnt do better than 50/50 in his own hometown against Greb. The most respected referee/boxing writer in the city said Greb won the fight the following day.
Maxie Rosenbloom was dropped and dominated so thoroughly that every newspaper in Cleveland gave Greb the decision and said he was carrying Rosenbloom.
Jimmy Slattery, who could only fight six rounds in New York due to his age, was considered a boxing phenom when he fought Greb. He took two rounds of the six before Greb took over and never looked back. Not a single one of Slattery's hometown papers thought he won. Had the fight gone longer than six rounds its likely Slattery would have been stopped or battered.
Jeff Smith fought Greb 7 times and the best he could do against Greb was a disputed draw in New Orleans.
Gene Tunney fought Greb 5 times. He was horribly beaten in the first, won a criminal gift decision in the second in a fight that the majority of Tunney's hometown papers said he lost, one even said he lost as bad as the first fight. He won the third on a close decision. Lost the fourth at neutral Cleveland, and finally won the fifth in convincing fashion when he broke a rib that Tiger Flowers cracked the previous year which had never been able to heal. Tunney liked to tell people that Greb never wanted to fight him again but in reality Greb agreed to face Tunney in Miami in early 1926 only to have Tunney back out in favor of the easier Young Stribling, then back out of that when he became the front runner for a Dempsey fight.
Mickey Walker fought Greb in New York and got the living **** kicked out of him. He was so devastated by the loss he had to create a tale whereby he defeated Greb later that night in the street just to erase some semblance of the loss.

Notice a trend there? The vast majority of those fights Greb won and won easily and in dominant fashion. He also fought those guys far more often than not on neutral territory or in their home town. So say goodbye to that little theory that he was getting gifts at home.

At least you admit that you are cherry picking to make Greb look bad.

This right here shows your inherent bias against the man. How do you know he would be rated lower if we could see him? How do you know he wouldnt be a revelation and wed rate him higher?

No Greb resides in a world where accomplishments outweigh how prettily a guy throws a punch, and thats what should matter. Nobody ignores his bad fights, the simple fact is he didnt have many of them. People take his career as a whole and judge it. Exactly what people should do. They shouldnt cherry pick his worst fights, judge him on those, and then extrapolate asinine arguments against him based on their own imagination and no facts whatsoever.

 

Even if Jones was a nobody, which he wasnt, what does that have to do with your point that Greb somehow got a gift decision because he was dropped twice early and came back to win? My point was that it happens. Marquez was dropped three times against Pac and some still think he won that fight. The relative level of opposition has no bearing on the outcome we are discussing. Would this decision that you seem to think is unjust be more just if Greb were dropped twice early and came back to beat Jack Dempsey? Im assuming its the circumstances, not the name, that have you so puzzled as to how Greb could win that decision.

Now, Jones has a losing record. Thats true. He was by no means great either. He was a journeyman level fighter. Journeymen can be dangerous. Jones had a punch that could knock a building down he just wasnt that skilled to get it home consistently. He was however Canadian HW champion, and apparently Canadian LHW champion (his record on boxrec is incomplete and he may not have a losing record once its finally tabulated). He also made Gene Tunney look like garbage on the undercard of Dempsey-Carpentier before Tunney finally caught up with him.

Oh your an expert... Good, Im glad you had to point that out to me. I couldnt tell by your posts.

Quite the contrary. Im more than willing to entertain valid criticisms of Greb or anyone else. I only insult stupidity as I have a very low tolerance for it. I know its one of my character flaws but there it is. Your argument is factually, and logically stupid so I have little patience for it.

You are sure he won gift decision but you have no proof? That makes no sense. It illustrates an extreme willfulness in wanting to believe he had gift decisions in the absence of evidence. Thats bias. Plain and simple.

Again, illustrating an extreme bias. You are sure he would be criticized harshly when in fact there is no better than a 50/50 chance of that happening and given the facts its actually probably less likely.

 

klompton....is there, or was there, a film of dempsey and greb sparring ??.....i remember seeing this picture a while ago...although i am not convinced this is greb, i do think its dempsey though..

http://www.ringwise.com/images/Dempsey-Greb-Sparring-15.jpg


do you think that if greb didnt do so good in their spars like he did, or if they hadnt met at all in sparring, that dempsey may have given him a title fight ?

 

No, Greb Dempsey sparring wasnt filmed. Greb himself said so in an interview I have.

This guy who runs that site is a con man. Years ago he had footage he was selling of "Greb sparring Dempsey" It was actually Dempsey sparring Jock Malone prior to Willard that he had edited out of the theatrical version of that film. Then later he came up with the one you have the picture of. Thats Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman out west in 1926 in early preparation for Gene Tunney. The original film is housed at the University of South Carolina. Then he came up with a film which he says is Greb sparring Big Bill Tate. Never mind that they never sparred and that the film is clearly from the late 1930s or early 1940s. Now hes is shopping this same film, that he once said was Bill Tate and Greb as Greb's 1926 bout with Allentown Joe Gans (that bout was never filmed). Hes a scumbag.

I think Greb would have had to have lost an one of those elimination bouts in a way that would have made Dempsey think Greb could put on a good show for the fans but not be too challenging for Dempsey to take that match.

 

Another point we haven't discussed. The more fights you have, the less chance you will win them all.
These days guys fight 30-40 fights, cherry pick em, and a loss is very very bad for their career.
If you fight 100-200 times, the chances you wont have an off night are almost nil. Saying Greb or anyone lost a fight or 2 to some unknown nguys means relatively little. His record is dominant.

 

Of course he did. Because if he knocked Harry Greb down, he must've had a punch that "could knock a building down."

Seriously. Who talks like that?

Yes, I'm sure Soldier Jones had a punch that could knock a building down because, if a mediocre guy nearly had Greb out, that opponent had to be super human himself.

Otherwise, the Greb fantasy dies.

Now, before you respond, be sure to go down your list of talking points:

Talking Point 1: Spend some time talking about how awesome Soldier Jones was. If you don't, people might think less of Harry. And you don't want people thinking he wasn't the perfect fighting machine.

(Oh, I see you already did that. Check that off.)

Talking Point 2: Be sure to say anyone who doubts Greb has an agenda. You can't have people looking behind the curtain. You must squash anything that contradicts the myth.

(Oh good, I see you guys did that. Check that off, too.)

Talking Point 3: If people keep questioning Greb, just mention his record against Hall of Famers again.

(Oh wait, most of those were no decisions. Ignore that, focus on the names. And if someone questions whether Greb won those fights, just go back to talking point 2 and charge them with having an agenda.)

Talking Point 4: If talk of any Greb films does emerge, lower expectations by blaming a bad performance on the quality of the film. Or, insist that how a fighter looks doesn't matter. Only wins do.

(Check. Looks like you guys covered all your bases.)

Now say five OUR HARRYS, ten HAIL GREBS and be sure to put money in the collection plate before you leave church.

:good

 

Or, if a popular fighter these days gets, let's say, four or five gift decisions in his career, because he had a few off nights or the officials did... how many gift decisions do we assume Greb got in a career that included five times as many fights?

Since people are human, and judges and referees and fighters all make mistakes and have bad days, they probably did when Greb was fighting, too.

Right?

Or, in addition to being the perfect fighter, was Harry Greb also the only person in boxing history to have 300 pro fights scored absolutely accurately?

 

I've always read tha Jones was a very good puncher.


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Actually, I mentioned it several times.

Also, consider that the guy was fought 300 times, mostly on short notice, traveling like a maniac (this point really came through in Compton's book) with little to no scouting, certainly no tape, on a great deal of his opponents. Also dealing with the lengthy illness and death of his wife and raising a child.

 

Still waiting for that list of gift decisions.

 

Hey, the guy could punch whether you like it or not. He was crude but he could punch his ass off. Its a fact.

The funny thing is the more that you talk the more you make Greb a legend. He got dropped twice in a fight that he won, dropping his opponent and cutting his eye, breaking his nose, leaving him spitting blood and swelling both eyes shut. Jones was literally crying in the ring in the 8th round when Greb dropped him. Crying. So Greb showed up out of shape and distracted and got caught and came back to bash the guy that bad and Im supposed to somehow pretend this the most awful thing that could happen. Sounds to me like you think Greb is so superhuman that this shouldnt have happened. I on the other hand realize he was human and **** happens. He took a **** sandwich, ate it up and spit it out. Thats what great fighters do and thats what he did.

The idea that somehow a ND bout doesnt count is hilarious. I wonder if those guys that Greb cut to ribbons and left bloody and broken thought their lumps, bruises, and cuts hurt any less because it was a ND bout.

You can try to whittle my argument down with your lack wit but the fact is that its you have nothing, absolutely nothing to base your argument on. You keep on going on about all of these gift decisions that Greb got which somehow beef his record up. Where? Where are they? Im still waiting. You say "If film of Soldier Jones shows up..." WHO GIVE A ****??? He won that fight and brutalized his opponent but more to the point that fight wasnt filmed. So go live your pathetic fantasy about a poor performance of Grebs showing up on film so you can tear him down somewhere else. It aint gonna happen. His exhibition against HW in 1918 was filmed. Dominant easy win by a MW over a big HW. His fight with Gibbons was filmed. Dominant win over the #1 HW contender future HOFer in a title eliminator for Dempsey in the seasons biggest fight in front of a gala crowd causing a sensation. Tunney MAYBE was filmed. A dominant win over an all time great future HOFer, future HW champ, and the only loss of that guys career. His fight with Ted Moore was filmed. Dominant, albeit lacklustre win over one of Englands best and toughest MWs. His bout with Mickey Walker was filmed. All time great win over one of the greatest P4P fighters in history in a sensational fight. Something tells me if a film surfaces of Greb its going to be pretty pleasing regardless.

But hey you keep believing whatever youve convinced yourself of based on absolutely no knowledge of the subject. Just make sure you get back to me with that long list gift decisions that Greb won over all of those HOFers.

 

Yeah the funny thing is this joker wants us to believe that Greb was fighting and winning all of these gift decisions in his hometown when in reality it was the norm for him to have a promoter contact him and ask him if he was available on a certain date and if so what he wanted to appear. Invariably his answer was "$1000, 2 train tickets, and get the best man you can find." For **** sakes how many fighters EVER would box away from home against the best possible opposition sight unseen for a pittance. As MW champion he took a fight in Detroit on 24 hours notice for a small purse. Again, as MW champion, he went to New York on two days notice to be on call in case Jack Delaney couldnt fight Paul Berlenbach. How many champions ever would have rushed to New York from their hometown on two days notice to be on call to fight a hall of famer (who was the known house fighter) in case the opponent couldnt make it... This man TOOK ****ING SCALPS and he didnt care who you set in front of him. And IF on the odd occasion you beat him you better be prepared to fight him again, several times, because he was going to want to prove he could kick your ass.