Is Tommy Gibbons a top-20 LB4LB Great?

Choynsky was actually the first real LHVy Champ .:good

 

"That is a pretty impressive list of scalps."

Yes, but it is not all Tommy's.

1. Greb--beaten in his 7th fight by Tommy Gibbons in 1915. More impressively, beaten by Tommy in 1920.

2. Kid Norfolk--ko'd by Tommy in 1924

3. Carpentier--beaten by Tommy in ND bout in 1924.

4. Miske--beaten several times by Tommy.

5. Willie Meehan--ko'd by Tommy.

6. George Chip--beaten several times by Tommy. Also by brother Mike Gibbons.

7. Al McCoy--beaten by Mike Gibbons. Never fought Tommy.

8. Jimmy Clabby--beaten by Mike Gibbons. Never fought Tommy.

9. Jack Dillon--Drew with Mike Gibbons. Never fought Tommy.

10. Frank Klaus--I can find no record in the old Ring Record Books or on boxrec that he fought either of the Gibbons brothers. He might have a better resume than either, though, with wins over Frank Mantell, Billy Papke, Jack Dillon, and Georges Carpentier, plus a draw with Stanley Ketchel.

 

Where do you see that Gibbons beat (or even fought) Frank Klaus?

 

Not sure what you mean by this, but Greb had had at least 40-something recorded fights when he fought Gibbons the first time - roughly twice the amount of known fights Gibbons had had.

 

Now that you point it out, I don't know what I mean by this either.


This is what is known as being completely and utterly in error or wrong.


Seamus is working 60 hour weeks. I don't even have that excuse, being retired. This is just the brain going south, which does happen now and then at my age.

 

Geriatrics thread....

 

To all the posters above---Tommy Gibbons had 106 fights[ND excluded],and he only lost 4 times...To Greb, Dempsey and to Gene Tunney,kod in 1925, in his last bout,at the age of 34 ...Before fighting Dempsey in 1923 and into 1925 Gibbons kod 41 out of 53 fights. including a kayo of Kid Norfolk in 1924...Very impressive...
But recently I saw a film of 1924 where Tommy Gibbons ko'd heavyweight Jack Bloomfield
in 3 rounds with an array of explosive punches, that has impressed me no end...WOW!
Try to check out this fight with Jack Bloomfield in 1924 which I saw on Youtube about 6 weeks ago...Gibbons was a great puncher and boxer, as this film clearly shows,and after seeing this film one question came to my mind...Little Harry Greb 160 lbs,how great you must have been to lick such a great lightheavyweight as a prime Tommy Gibbons several times ? ESB forum try to post this film again ! It will give us all a better perspective of Tommy Gibbon's place in history...Check it out...b.b.

 

I dont think Gibbons was great, I think he just missed the cut. He was a heck of a fighter but had a few things going against him: 1. he was a guy who never could seem to win the big ones when it mattered. 2. he spent that majority of his career in the shadow of his older brother Mike who was by far the better fighter. 3. He was very carefully matched for much of his career which gives his record a glossier look than it really has when you start going through the victories piece by piece. His two greatest wins in my opinion are his 1915 and 1920 victories over Greb. Particularly his 1920 victory. Greb came into the fight out of shape and overconfident but I cant stand excuses from fighters so you have to give Tommy credit for beating Greb as close to his prime as anyone who ever beat him. In 1915 Greb was still cutting his teeth and while he may have had more fights than Tommy people need to remember that Tommy was trained by and sparring with the greatest fighter in the world at that time: Mike Gibbons. Thats a massive advantage. Lets also not forget that this was Greb's first fight this far away from home, and only his fourth fight over 6 rounds. He lost and he lost fair and square but Tommy had some serious advantages in his favor at this particular time.

The Kid Norfolk fight is very deceptive because most people dont know or dont remember that Tommy ducked Norfolk about EIGHT YEARS before he finally fought him when Norfolk was on the slide. Had they fought in about 1917 when that match was really gaining popularity with the fans the result could very well have been different.

I think Carpentier is totally overrated and was never going to beat a fighter of Gibbons calibre no matter what. Gibbons dominated him. Saying Carp beat Levinsky and Gunboat Smith is an insult to those guys. Saying he beat TK Lewis is an insult to Tommy. As if a victory over a guy who could still make 145 pounds (with a cheap shot on the break no less) is going to have any bearing on a fight at 175 or above.

The Meehan KO is impressive because not many guys were able to do that with Meehans durability and style. Its probably the best KO win in his streak that led to the elimination bout with Greb.

George Chip was already starting to fade due to so many hard wars when he first faced Tommy in St. Paul. His style was perfect for Tommy but its interesting to note that when Tommy came to Pittsurgh trying to make a name for himself there he fought Chip who they expected would be easy meat for Tommy and make Tommy look good. It turned out to be a very competetive fight and most werent all that impressed with Tommy. A week or two later they tried to do damage control by matching Tommy with Clay Turner who was a good fighter but probably a rung or so below Chip on the talent ladder and Tommy looked much better. This was sort of the case with Tommy's career. If you matched him right or a caught a guy at the right time or on the slide he looked unstoppable. Match him tough and he either failed to impressive (sometimes not always) or lost outright.

Even his brother Mike said the same thing. He was highly critical of Tommy after losing to Greb in 1922. He stated that all of the setups he had been matched with convinced him that he was a puncher which led to him getting away from pure boxing. Look at the fights that REALLY MATTERED of Tommy's where something huge was on the line, a title shot, another big payday, a title, etc. Tommy choked more often than not.

 

On the Meehan ko, this is the take of the New York Times in a preview of the Dempsey fight, 7-1-1923:

GIBBON'S RECORD IS NOT IMPRESSIVE

KNOCKOUT STRING SCORED OVER SECOND-STRINGERS--MEEHAN BEST KNOWN VICTIM

"While Gibbon's string of consecutive knockouts looks impressive on paper, it has failed to make the majority of big boxing men take him seriously. Most of his knockout triumphs were scored over second-raters and others very little known. He has never stopped an opponent classed as a top-notcher. His best effort was in knocking out Willie Meehan, but when Meehan fought Gibbons he was considered through as a high-class ring performer by virtually all the critics."

 

ESB forum --Check out this fight on youtube in 1924, London...
Google Tommy Gibbons/Jack Bloomfield fight 1924 youtube...Gibbons looks awesome in this fight...We know he was a great boxer ,but check out his punching prowess....

P.S.about 25 years ago I met Jack Bloomfields brother in New York, from England...

 

But Bloomfield was barely even in the same class as some of the other also rans that Gibbons ran up his KO streak with. He only fought for six years, lost to the best fighters he faced, and retired after being totally outclasses by Gibbons. I have four or five of Bloomfields fights including some of his best wins, he was a club fighter level opponent at best. That fight ended just as was expected for Tommy, if he hadnt dominated and KOd Bloomfield that would have been more newsworthy than what he ended up doing. Remember, this was an era when Americans routinely travelled to Europe in order to score some easy money. However, this fight is notable as being the only victory of Gibbons that exists on film, and it is to Gibbons credit that he was already fading when he scored this KO.

 

I agree with you that Bloomfield was not a top calibre fighter, but nevertheless Tommy Gibbons showed great punching power with two hands....As i have posted before, Harry Greb's victories of the much bigger Gibbons, {and others of course], reinforces my long held opinion that the Pittsburgh Windmill was the greatest P4P fighter in history...
Lets cut to the chase folks, What 160 pound fighter facing all the great lightheavies and some heavyweights, that Greb beat, would even come close to duplicating Greb's record, against these same opponents ?
The logical answer is no one in fistic history....