Is Tommy Gibbons a top-20 LB4LB Great?

Seamus, there is no one who respects Ray Robinson more than I do.I saw him in his prime...But only once did Robby fight a LT Heavy in Joey Maxim, who was the only Lightheavy that Robinson woulkd tackle,because Maxim couldnt hit harder than some middleweights...Maxim and the heat stopped Robinson as we know...Robinson wisely avoided Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles. Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc,because Ray knew his limitations...He would have been stopped by these 15 pound heavier men, as was common opinions of that time...Conversely Harry Greb was fearless...He fought all the best big men of his times, and avoided NO ONE. Greb's unique style of speed, strength ,unlimited stamina, iron chin,and sheer love of combat, enabled Greb to beat the BIG BOYS..
I am certain that Greb would have certainly licked everyone of Robinson's opponents, and equally certain that Robinson didnt have the ability to whip the lightheavies such as Tunney, Loughran, Gibbons, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Kid Norfolk. and Billy Miske, Gunboat Smith, Big Bill Brennan etc,..That is my criteria for picking Greb over Robinson...
As for Fitz and Sam Langford, as great as anyone , but Langford fought a lot at about 170-75 pounds, and I regard Fitz as a heavyweight....

 

Do you consider Greb a heavyweight? Fitzsimmons recorded weights never exceded 175 (he only hit that weight once in his life) and as late as 1909 he weighed 156 lbs. Indeed, he probably fought less heavyweights than Greb and probably weighed less than Greb did when doing it.

 

I consider Bob Fitzimmons a physical aberration. Fitz could make 160 pounds when fighting non heavyweights , but as one old writer put it when comparing Fitz with the great middleweights, ' it is cruel to compare the Walkers. Ketchels etc with Bob Fitzimmons ",so highly was Fitz regarded...A heavyweight in size and punching power, but a large middleweight on the scales...
Harry Greb at 5ft8" was a true middleweight in size, that is why I take that in cosideration in rating Greb my #1 P4P alltime...

 

I once read that Harry Greb and later on Henry Armstrong ,had a resting heart rate in the forties, thus accounting for their stamina..Like long distance runners today...b.,b.

 

Thats a cop out. Talk about a double standard. Fitzsimmons was under six feet, well with in range of many middleweights, and routinely weighed in right around the same weight as Greb. You cant rank them differently all-time because one is a "physical aberration"... Greb's stamina was an aberration, his speed was an aberration, his determination was an aberration, his willingness to face anyone was an aberration. Its these intangibles that make a man great. Why cant we rank Fitz and Greb in the same class when they fought around the same weight and both fought in three different divisions? Why? Because Nat Fleisher said Fitz was a heavyweight and Greb was a middleweight? You are talking about p4p rankings to begin with so what weight they fought at has no bearing and this argument is doubly so for these two because they fought so successfully at so many weights, regardless of their own size disparities.

 

Exactly what i was thinking klompton.
I love greb burt,but you cant consider fitz a 'heavy'.
Greb fitz,whoyagot? :smoke

 

Greb, Fitz,whoyagot,? I gotta a headache!!
Klomptom is correct, Fitz should not be penalized for his freakish build..At ALMOST 6ft,and the upper structure of a heavyweight ,Fitz could make 160 lbs if needed...What he must have been like when he first came to America when he was 27 years old.!!As a middleweight Ruby Robert kod
Jack Dempsey, Peter Maher, Jim Hall,Dan Creedon,in his prime years 28-32
A marvel was Bob Fitzimmons, no question....Harry Greb was the opposite of Fitz as the 5ft8" Greb depended on blinding hand speed,a pair of rubber legs,with the ability to get him out of range when hit,always on the offensive, which put his bigger opponents on the defense most of the time...Plus great stamina during every round...
Who would win if they fought each other over 15 rounds.? I think that Greb knowing about Fitz's punching power, would be ultra careful and win a decision over 15 rounds...I could be wrong of course...b.b.

 

Ive always felt the stories of Fitz freakish build were embellished to say the least. He certainly had spindly legs, and certainly had broad powerful shoulders, but to say he had the upper body of a heavyweight I think is a bit much. He looks to me like what he was, a middleweight/light heavyweight. What was freakish about Fitz was his power which by all accounts was damn near ungodly. You can see where he would generate it from with those big shoulders, and long reach. He reminds me of a 19th century Tommy Hearns.

 

In a series i'd possibly go with greb as well Burt.

Fitz may have been a 19th century hearns/jackson but he seemed to be much more resilient than those two,along with being naturally bigger than either.