Is Tyson Fury Still A H2H Goat ?

What's ******ed is that I've explained this to you about 4x and you still don't get it somehow.

The peak a boo style is a terrible comparison because that is an example of a short guy with short arms making the most of his natural abilities to become one of the best short explosive boxers in HW history. Thank you for proving my point. Tyson didn't just rely upon his natural punching power, he developed incredible head movement, timing, and combinations to setup his punches.

 

I'm talking about how an observer is saying something like if "fighter A" didn't have the physical advantages they have, then they wouldn't have had the success over "fighter B" - a ridiculous statement.

What don't you understand about what I'm saying? It's ridiculous to go there, it's make believe, it's arguing against an intrinsic truth.

If this screw wasn't a flathead than this Phillips head screwdriver would be working. Bad screw! Bad screw! It's all your fault! - a ridiculous statement.

That's what I'm getting at.

 

With all respect (you post is overall great), but Ortiz never was such a massive puncher as Wilder- and Fury fans make him out to be.

He was unable to hurt the German Christian Hammer once in 10 rounds. The same Hammer who got dropped by Gypsy King and stopped by Hughie.

Put Wilder from round 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 form the 2nd Fury fight against elite punchers and he is done. Lewis, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, both Klitschko s and even Ruiz Jr would smash him to bits and finish him in such a condistion he was then.

And about Steward: Yes, for a man his size Fury is great. But he is still clumsy compared to Usyk.

 

"He was unable to hurt the German Christian Hammer once in 10 rounds. The same Hammer"

I don't agree that Ortiz fought "the same Hammer" as Hughie; the Hughie version was a full-on journeyman who hadn't had a decent win in about 3 years. It also bears mentioning that Povetkin failed to drop or stop Hammer and Hammer got off the floor to stop big punching Price two rounds later, he was very durable. Hammer also fought a post-Wilder 1 Ortiz who was more than 3 years and eight fights removed from his signature win.

Ortiz's fights against Page, Kayode, Jennings, Thompson, Allen, Cojanu and Martin make the case that Ortiz had substantial one-punch power, as does the fact that he was so heavily avoided.

"Lewis, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, both Klitschko s and even Ruiz Jr would smash him to bits and finish him in such a condition"

I think this is incorrect. Examine the records of these fighters. For instance, Ruiz wasn't able to put a dent in Liakhovich after Wilder had sparked him in 1 previously. Ruiz had 43 year old Ortiz in serious trouble in round 2 but didn't or couldn't capitalise. That's aside from the fact that Wilder could one-punch KO most if not all of them even when he's badly hurt.

"But he is still clumsy compared to Usyk."

Usyk is naturally 40 lbs lighter, 5 inches shorter and has 7 inches less reach than Fury while being an elite fighter in his own right so naturally he's going to have a co-ordination advantage.

 

Ok, so 5th time I'm explaining this and then I'm done. You are either trolling or stupid at this point. Everything is going in one ear and out the other.

Fury is a skilled big man, but many times he relies on his size more than his actual boxing ability. He was ironically better when he used to use his herky jerky, shifty style with footwork, head movement, etc. Then over the years he was all about simply being huge, grappling, leaning on guys, throwing big shots, etc.

Nobody is saying Fury should be penalized or criticized for using his size to his advantage. That is common ****ing sense. If you hit hard, take advantage of that and set up power punches. If you have good defense, take advantage of that and punish your opponents mistakes. What I'm saying is Fury could have been even better h2h if he developed more to his game to become a truly elite big man like Lewis, prime Bowe, Wladmir, etc but he didn't. He got lazy and fat. And I stand by my statement that if he were smaller he'd have less success if he had to rely on something other than size. The point being: his skills outside of using his size to his advantage range from mediocre to bad in many cases. Do you get it now? This isn't about me getting mad at a flat head for not being a Phillips head or any other dumbass comparisons.

Now to my original point, since you apparently have horrendous reading comprehension, I don't rate Fury particularly high h2h because in several of his fights in recent years he has become much more predictable, hittable, and less skilled. Things were already looking kind of bad before the Francis fiasco with many glaring issues. If you asked me how Fury does h2h against other elite HWs or how I rate his skill in the p4p sense, I would say not that high. Because (and I'm beating a dead horse at this point) I have SEEN other big men like Fury who are more skilled who didn't overly rely on their size to win. Hell even Vitali with his very thin resume should be rated higher because Vitali was consistently good at what he did for several years rarely losing rounds.

Fury has both a thin resume and some pretty dodgy performances lately. To rate someone's skills h2h or p4p, you need to look at how they actually perform in the ring and then you compare them to other fighters to see how their competence/skill/toughness etc measures up. Sure, Fury might be able to get away with relying on his size in a hypothetical fight with the much smaller Jack Johnson or Max Schmeling, but against some of the more recent elite fighters through history he might struggle since they are ALSO bringing size to the table along with many intangibles Fury lacks. Hell even within his own current division, I'm not so confident Fury beats Joshua, Ruiz, Zheng, or Usyk right now.

 

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"Fury is a skilled big man, but many times he relies on his size more than his actual boxing ability."

If this screw wasn't a flathead than this Phillips head screwdriver would be working. Bad screw! Bad screw! It's all your fault! - a ridiculous statement.

I'm talking about how an observer is saying something like if "fighter A" didn't have the physical advantages they have, then they wouldn't have had the success over "fighter B" - a ridiculous statement.

What don't you understand about what I'm saying? It's ridiculous to go there, it's make believe, it's arguing against an intrinsic truth.

 

You're an idiot.

 

I know you think that, hence why I’m pushing my perspective.

 

GOAT ???
He’s not even in the conversation
He doesn’t make the top 50 for me, genuinely!

He’s all hype, full of talk and self promotion with very very very little to back up his words.

Let’s be honest and I’m not a hater, but let’s be truthful, he fought a very stale, disinterested and aging Wladimir Klitschko and won a fight where neither combatant deserved the title of World Champion. It was without doubt the most lacklustre, low quality Title fight I’ve ever seen and I’ve been watching for 50 years.

He never defended those titles!
Then fights Wilder in a trilogy which was engrossing, entertaining and had quality but is tainted by Wilders fake status in the game. Wilder hadn’t and still hasn’t fought anyone with real quality, he’s never taken on a lion who has hunger, ambition with skill and power. Wilders managers have fed him a succession of White Collar Boxers, Tomato Cans and bum of the month level boxers from outside the top 100, 200 even 300 ranked fighters. In the vast majority his opponents have been happy to lay down at the first opportunity and take their payday, it somewhat invalidates the KO ratio that Wilder owns.

Following that Fury hasn’t fought anyone of note, probably the best being Whyte and he’s avoided Usyk, Joshua, Dubois, Joyce, Hergovic and now Zhang. Choosing instead to fight Ngannou in a circus atmosphere, a fight most think he lost.

so when I read or hear about Fury and his place amongst the All Time Greats of Ali, Louis, Lewis, Tyson, Marciano, Holyfield, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Dempsey, W Klitschko, Patterson, Liston, Walcott etc. . . .
I can only laugh at the notion of him rating amongst them

 

So hard to rate him h2h when his resume doesn't give us much depth to compare to. I think he's displayed ATG attributes in fights (e.g. getting off the floor to win) but he doesn't have the wins against a range of styles and fighters at elite level for me to feel confident picking him against the greats.

 

It’s h2h not resume… Completely fine if you think prime Fury is ****. Guess we just have to disagree on how good Fury really was.

 

Something that really, really surprised me was how little Ngannou seemed to react to Fury's feints. I've only seen the highlight tbf, but Fury seemed to get little to nothing from his very pronounced feints which are a big part of his game.

 

Lennox Lewis.