Is Vasyl Lomachenko p4p the GOAT?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Beouche, Dec 15, 2021.

  1. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

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    "You are the one who needs a logic course because damn."

    Yet funny how you failed to pinpoint a single logical fallacy in anything I typed.


    "So if I decide to have 10 amateur fights, win and gain nothing, while another guy has 10 fights with the same exact guys I fought and wins something, his wins are now more impressive ? moronic logic. That whole "false equivalence" thing you did was childlishly pathetic."

    Yes, his wins are more impressive, because his fights have something on the line like titles and awards, and when titles are on the line, fights become more meaningful, and when fights become more meaningful, winning such fights is more impressive than winning meaningless fights that have nothing on the line in the form of titles or awards.

    What's moronic logic is to think these two situations are at all the same (false equivalence).

    Those same guys are better, more prepared, better trained, and fighting with more hunger and motivation when they are fighting for something, be they titles, awards and etc. than when they fought you without there being anything on the line to win.

    Nobody cares about your unknown wins over somebody in a private gym. Now if you fought in front of the public and won a medal or trophy against the same guy, then that's astronomically more impressive and meaningful.

    Oh, and I didn't do any 'false equivalence' thing. I pointed out you committing this logical fallacy, which you have again for the second time of asking. What's childish is you making the same mistakes again and again, despite the mistakes being pointed out to you.


    "If you want to go to College, and you require good grades from High School in order to do so, will you skip primary and middle school just because their grades are worthless for college, despite not knowing ANYTHING when you get to High school ?"

    Except they're not 'worthless' LMFAO! If you want to go high school from primary or middle school, then you need to first have the sufficient grades to qualify for high school. Likewise, if you want to go college from high school, you must also have sufficient grades from high school. It's a logical process where one qualifications leads to the next.

    "that is literally the same thing with amateur fights in Boxing, they don't count, but they give you the necessary tools to turn pro ( aka go to high school) and be succesful ( aka go to college ).

    No, they're not the same thing. You don't need to have been an amateur at all, to qualify as a pro-boxer and vice versa. But you can't enter college until you attain necessary qualifications from high-school first.


    "Again, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to discount experience, that cannot ever happen. it's basic freaking logic, not rocket science.""

    Likewise, I could just turn around and tell you that you can't discount accomplishments either. That cannot ever happen. It's basic freaking logic, not rocket science.

    Thus, Lomachenko's multiple Olympic gold medals, world championship titles and European championship titles cannot be discounted either. They matter to his overall greatness as a boxer, and when combined with his pro achievements, Lomachenko is the greatest boxer of all time OBJECTIVELY or at least of the past century!

    Live with that and deal with it!
     
  2. Ioakeim Tzortzakis

    Ioakeim Tzortzakis New Member Full Member

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    I swear, you just don't understand what matters in this sport. Half of the stuff you said were just pulled out of your backside.

    No, these wins are not more impressive, they are the same. They are literally the same guys, a prize or a trophy are not going to change the quality of those fighters. One has a prize and the other doesn't, that doesn't make a win better. You are basically saying that if I defeat a future all time great in a non title bout, it's less impressive than if I beat a paper champ because he has a title. That is absolutely ridiculous. It's the quality of the FIGHTER that makes a win impressive, not a stupid prize. You can't even know if a fighter will be better prepared and in better condition if he is fighting for a prize or not, the opponent that could give him the chance to win a prize may be a bum and he might not take him seriously, while the "random" guy might be a killer, you are just assuming things that cannot be proven, straight out of your arse.

    You do also realize that you literally said the exact same thing I said in my school example right ? I even gave 2 parenthesis to make it even more obvious that primary and middle school are the amateur fights, that high school is turning pro, and college is making it to the top. And if they are not the same thing like you say, and amateur fights are so imporant to go pro why were you previously accusing Armstrong of losing his early fights if he was so unprepared and why weren't you making excuses for him instead of Loma? Quit trying to make yourself look smart because you make yourself look like even more like a fool instead.

    And you're wrong, you can discount accomplishments because amateur Boxing and pro Boxing are different things with different equipment, rules and criteria. No one mentions Ali's amateur career, Leonard's, Whitaker's or anyone else you can think of when they talk about their greatness. Everyone now just wants to find a convenient excuse to make their dear Loma something he is not.

    Do you want to know what Lomachenko truly is ? He is the greatest amateur boxer of all time, a boxer with truly elite skills, who is constantly overrated because a lot of people get impressed too easily. They lose their minds over his sidesteps, feints and flashy aesthetics and suddenly act like he is an immortal Boxing God and assume that he just invented all that stuff. There were Boxers 70 years ago who could do what Lomachenko does more effectively, albeit not as aesthetically in most cases. Loma is the GOAT amateur, and an unproven ( in an ATG measurement ) Boxer with lowkey ATG skills. Loma is not the GOAT, and he is light years away from it. Deal with it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  3. Olu G. Rotimi

    Olu G. Rotimi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No where close.
     
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  4. miniq

    miniq Big Stiff Idiot Full Member

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    Only 1 man is unblemished, undefeated, unstoppable and been the champion, the man, the dogs gonads for the last 7+ years.

    His name is Tyson Fury.
     
  5. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Икрашевић Full Member

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    What about Artur Beterbiev. He is not ?
     
  6. Zecora

    Zecora New Member Full Member

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    Nah, I'd probably say it's Sugar Ray Robinson.
     
  7. buster007

    buster007 FAB 4 R A GAY PORN CLUB Full Member

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    yet another dumb topic.
     
  8. Betyabeatyaup

    Betyabeatyaup Active Member Full Member

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    Unproven in an ATG measurement? Didn’t the dude win his first two weight divisions (or three) in the fewest amount of fights? He beat GRJ for a title in just his third pro fight right? He was also considered a pound for pound guy in 10 fights or so right?
    I started watching boxing in the 90s and I’ve never seen someone with his footwork and feints, he is something completely new in boxing. Combined with his achievements I have him above Floyd and GGG in ATG rankings. Below Pac, RJJ, Hopkins, Duran, Whitaker, Canelo. In terms of ability, skill and completeness he’s the best I’ve ever seen to be honest. To call him an unproven boxer with low key ATG skills? I need some of what you’re smoking. Give credit where it’s due. Lomachenko is a boxing alien, hi-tech was an apt nickname.
     
  9. Betyabeatyaup

    Betyabeatyaup Active Member Full Member

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    This is confusing to me. Why does his number of fights have any relevance to anything? He beat GRJ for a world title in his 3rd fight, it makes zero sense to pretend he’s ‘only’ had 18 pro fights. He also has those multiple weight class achievements with dominant victories at those weight classes.
     
  10. Betyabeatyaup

    Betyabeatyaup Active Member Full Member

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    This is not a valid criticism. The same way Floyd looked lost against Castillo, Maidana. He got outboxed by DLH and Cotto at times and lost plenty of rounds. Is Floyd good at adapting? So how were his struggles against rough boxers any different? People excuse Tank for his performance against Cruz because of his hand (I had Cruz winning), yet call Loma against Lopez an excuse (I had that fight a draw and Loma was clearly the better fighter)? These double standards make no sense. What’s the other ‘loss’ that Lomachenko had? I would hope you’re not appealing to the officiating shambles that was the Salido fight. Dude didn’t even make weight lol.
     
  11. znalniaskas

    znalniaskas Member Full Member

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    Loma is not even the p4p nr. 1 in his homecountry, that's Usyk.
     
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  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

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    Realistically he's not among the top 100 all time, unless you count his amateur/Olympic-style career.
     
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  13. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Totally agree. keep well.
     
  14. derekcantona

    derekcantona Member Full Member

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    The only mention I made of Floyd Mayweather in my post was to acknowledge that, like Floyd and Pac at Welter and above, he is undersized at the weight. Why does everybody assume that you can only be one massive fan of one boxer? I like watching Lomachenko, I'm very clear on this point.

    Since you're framing this as a Floyd - Lomachenko post, I'll respond in that manner although the thread is supposed to be about Loma and I barely referenced the guy (doing so as much with Pacquiao).

    You're really comparing Salido and Lopez to DLH and Cotto at 154? You don't see the difference in quality here? Of course he got outboxed 'at times', that's what happens when multi-weight champions fight each other at the larger man's preferred weight - very, very rarely do these fights go 12-0 or 11-1, and especially not when you're the smaller man in there. I'm pretty sure Floyd would have preferred both of those guys at 147 and those fights would have been far more one sided at that weight.

    Loma carried a shoulder injury into his fight against Lopez, fine - you do realize that Mayweather had an injury in the Castillo fight too? Zero sympathy then for his poor performance and it's still used as a stick to beat the guy with without context or without acknowledging that Castillo was outclassed in the rematch. Same with Maidana - close fight, outclassed in the rematch. He didn't look 'lost' - he adapted to win enough rounds to get by and then bossed them in rematches that he really didn't have to take but he wanted to prove a point. Why are you using 'loss' in inverted commas for the Salido fight? Loma allowed that fight to go ahead and Salido won the fight. It wasn't a 'loss' - it was a loss. You seriously had Loma beating Lopez?

    Tank isn't spoken about in reverential PFP terms, that's the difference, but he did enough to beat Cruz. Mediocre performance, sure, but Cruz didn't win.
     
  15. Aussie Invader

    Aussie Invader Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    sure you want to run with this?