Is Wlad a bit like Joe Louis in re-matches?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012.


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  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    History and the films show Louis struggled in his first matches with Godoy, Schmeling, and Walcott. Louis did not look great in the first match vs. Pastor or Conn either. In the above fights Louis was Ko’d once, and floored a total of four times. ( 2x by Shcemling, 2x by Walcott ). He was also behind on the score cards vs. Conn before scoring a late round stoppage. However, Louis made amends by stopping all of the above fighters in re-match.

    Wlad has had quite a few re-matches, and each time, he has been more dominant than the first.

    Byrd- Ripped to shreds and stopped early.

    Brewster, who won via TKO in the first match, was badly out classed and stopped in the re-match.

    Peter, who managed to floor Wlad 3 times but lost a clear decision in the first match, was blow out and stopped in the re-match.

    Thompson, who was somewhat competitive in the first match, was not competitive at all and lost much sooner in the re-match
     
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Louis totally dominated Pastor in their first fight. I think he looked pretty good versus Conn overall. I agree that he looked considerably better in rematches versus Walcott and obviously Schmeling though.

    I agree that Wlad is better in rematches. He's a saftey first fight even when it's not neccessary. Seeing the first fight, talking it over in previously unseen detail seems to relax him. Is he better? Probably not across the board. More aggressive on occasion? Definitely.
     
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
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  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    It has been a while since I have viewed it, but Louis did not look good in the re-match vs,. Walcott. He was down on points, and scored a late stoppage when Walcott inexplicably decided to get cute and exchange punches.


    I think Conn, who was under 170 pounds exposed Louis in the first fight. Conn went for the KO after staggering Louis in the previous round. He was up on points after 12 rounds. It was his mistake to exchange punches late in the match.


    But we agree on the central points. Both guys were much better in re-matches.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't actually agree that Wlad was better in rematches across the board. He was brilliant against Thompson, for example, in both fights, but in different ways. He was certainly more clinical in the second fight though, I think the key point is that both guys learned in rematches.

    In the first Conn fight Louis was certainly behind, but if Conn had somehow survived the 13th he almost certainly would have lost the fourteenth. It's then a box-off for the decision in the fifteenth. I would favour Louis to win on points even had he not won by KO. But he certainly learned from that first fight and applied what he learned.
     
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
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  5. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

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    Wlad chose to fight Byrd instead of rematch with Brewster.
    He beat Brewster when he was a declined fighter.

    He beat Thompson far more convincingly this time.

    Peter and Byrd especially both declined since Wlad beat them the first time.

    On the other hand Wlad significantly improved after Peter 1.

    Wlad did perform better in rematches against all of them, yes.

    He still probably would have performed better in rematches even if he fought prime versions of Brewster, Byrd and Peter.

    Rematches against prime Brewster and Sanders would have given us a better indicator of how Wlad adapts in rematches, in my opinion.
     
    Lester1583, Jul 10, 2012
    Lester1583, Jul 10, 2012
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Please explain? Wlad's re-matches were all shorter and more convincing victories.

    Byrd- The re-match was one of Wlad's best performances. Byrd who then was never in the fight.

    Peter- The re-match was not even close. This time Peter was knocked out and failed to floor Wlad.

    Thompson - The re-match was shorter, and Wlad got hit a lot less.

    Brewster - Avenged a lost with by jarring Brewster all night long until his corner threw in the towel.

    I would say Wlad was definitely better in re-matches, and the results show this.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The only resemblance between Louis and Klitschko is they both had two arms and legs.
    Byrd was 36 in the rematch time lapse 6 years . Brewster time lapse 3 years.
    Peter was clearly diminished as a force he had two defeats in between their fights ,and lacked ambition.Time lapse 7 years.
    Thompson was 36 when he faced Wlad the first time,40 the next, he hadn't set the world on fire in between ,and was lucky to get another title shot, especially as he did not cover himself with glory in their first fight. The second fight was a stinker . Time lapse 4 years.




    As champ Louis rematched Buddy Baer who had floored him in their first fight, time lapse 7 months.
    Rematched Godoy who had given him an awkward night,time lapse 4 months.

    Rematched Walcott, who lost a controversial decision ,time lapse 6 months.

    Godoy was rated no2 ,Baer no7, Walcott,no 1.

    No valid comparison can be made
     
    mcvey, Jul 10, 2012
    mcvey, Jul 10, 2012
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There's nothing more convincing than knocking the other guy out. I don't think quicker knock outs are neccessarily indicative of superiority. Wlad dominated Thompson in both fights. In the first he was more cautious - I don't think this is "worse" than being less cautious. Both were great displays. I do think that Wlad learned from the first fight and put what he learned into action in that second fight which is impressive in its own way.
     
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
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  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    He reminds me more of Jeffries in some ways.

    The oponent gets worse, and he gets better, with the obvious result.

    The debate about finding a sucessor, is also taking the same direction as it did with Jeffries later in his title reign i.e the obvious options have been exaused and nobody is realy expected to beat him.
     
    janitor, Jul 10, 2012
    janitor, Jul 10, 2012
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  10. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    All the fighters Wlad rematched had declined significantly and Brewster aside none of them bothered him in the first place. Most fighters finish a fighter faster in a rematch if they beat them easily already and most fighters do better once a fighter is past it while he himself is still near his best
     
    PowerPuncher, Jul 10, 2012
    PowerPuncher, Jul 10, 2012
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  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You could also argue that Wlad improved, and adjusted. Keep in mind, Louis got to say when and where for most of his rematches. Wlad was sometimes forced by sanctioning organizations.

    I think Wlad is good for another 3-4 years. There is a good chance he will come close to, or possible even pass Louis in successful title defenses.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
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  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Look at the time lapse between the fights.
    Wlad rematched spent fighters.
     
    mcvey, Jul 10, 2012
    mcvey, Jul 10, 2012
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  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Think about that again.

    I would say Fitz was smashing contenders leading up to the re-match, more active, and better in the 2nd fight! How was Ruhlin worse in the 2nd match? That was his prime. And Sharkey was better conditioned for the re-match, and at his absolute peak.


    Only Corbett was clearly worse for the wear in the re-match.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 10, 2012
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  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Fitz is sort of the David Haye figure in the second fight (not comparing their credentials). It was the fight that the public wanted, and it kept falling through due to bickering about terms, but eventualy money talked and it was forced through.

    I guess that Fitz in the first fight is Chagaev.

    It is curious, but the two past champions I often find myself comparing Wlad to are Sullivan and Jeffries. Sullivan because of the way he had to round up all the various title claims, and Jeffries because of the dominance that he ultimately established over a division lapsing into gentle senility.
     
    janitor, Jul 10, 2012
    janitor, Jul 10, 2012
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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The wonderful, wonderful thing about Wlad is that he has fulfilled his potential. He's exceeded it. If you had said this was possible after Brewster I, people would have said you were crazy. How some people don't admire him is beyond me.
     
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 10, 2012
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