Is Wlad the best all-time-heavyweight? NO OPINION, just PURE RECORD ANALYSIS

First of all let me say, that (as I wrote above) I am very unhappy that I threw out all the sub-200 fights. But I had to set the margin somewhere. So I set it @ 200 (= how it's defined now).

Second: I plan to count sub-200 and mixed bouts in the future. I will deduct a % of the fight, because a 180 vs 180 bout is less representative (compared to how we define heavyweight now) than a 190 vs 190 bout.

So 200+ vs 200+ is 100%
175 vs 175 is 0% (cruiser margin @ Ali's time)
187.5 vs 187.5 is 50%
187.5 vs 200+ is 75%
190 vs 190 is %60
195 vs 195 is %80
190 vs 200+ is 80%
195 vs 200+ is 90% and so on

This will also solve another problem (as I wrote above): That a very good cruiser (Holyfield) gets at least some credit for his cruiser bouts.

I plan also to include "Experience" (= calculated by the number of previously fought rounds at the time of the fight) so that cruisers like Ali get some credit for that, too.

Moreover Marciano (who has not fought a single heavyweight bout by nowadays definition, being ALWAYS below 190) would be included in the stats, too. But don't get too excited about Marciano, he fought mainly bums (he was fighting during the second world war). He had only 2 non-bum 200+ opponents: 37 year old Joe Louis (Louis' last fight) and Don Cockell (chinachin and featherfist).

Marciano average fighting weight was 184, the average weight of his opponents (many of the bummiest opponents I have ever counted) was 192. (How you can rate such a boxer as high as some do is beyond me, but let this be not the point here): So the average value of his fights would be somewhere around 52%. It's still better than throwing Marciano completely out as I do now.

So with my new counting method (which is too calculation-intense to be done by hand) I will include the below-200 bouts.

Please note, that so far by excluding below-200 fights I also excluded LOSSES that were below-200.

I am not sure whether it's harder to survive a mixed bout (= 1 fighter above-200 and 1 fighter below-200) by being the lighter or the heavier boxer.
The lighter fighter is faster (= can punch faster, can punch more frequent, can move away faster) and needs less oxygen for going more rounds (as you can see by the small marathon runners), the heavier is stronger (and probably more punch resistent) but slower.

 

Ali and Louis in the early days were cruisers. So they wouldn't even fight against Klitschko.

 

So far yes. Usually the below-200 boxer DOES NOT KO the 200+ boxer.

THAT MEANS that the fight HAS to be scored (duh!)

THAT MEANS that probably the boxer wins who was more active/more quick etc. which OF COURSE puts the lighter boxer at a huge advance.

 

We had this already, and I asked where this opinion comes from that you may be below-200 for a heavyweight bout. I could not find it in the official regulations.

I answered this already in a post above. Moreover 200+ is the current definition (and rightfully so, since everything below 200 looks like cruiser) so I don't want to fiddle around with % above 200. As I already wrote in a post above we have to expect that margin to be raised again (like it is raised at MMA), so expect Ali & co to fall even more behind.

Theoretically one should make such a ranking, but then it would be full of "*" with comments. I want a ranking where the toppest guy can beat the lower guys
a) more likely
b) in more cases then other way around.

So Lennox #1 and Dempsey #2 would mean that
a) it's more likely that Lennox beats Dempsey
b) should they clash several times Lennox would beat Dempsey more often.

No excel. There never will be an excel.

 

1. Thank you again, for actually reading what I wrote
2. No, I didn't change my mind. That quoted post was not about MIXED fights (1 fighter below-200, 1 fighter above-200)
3. But since you asked, let me clarify: By itself you cannot say who has an advantage: The lighter+faster boxer or the stronger+slower boxer. But I think that a natural cruiser with a strong chin (like Ali) has an advantage boxing 200+ boxers. And a natural heavy like Lennox has an advantage boxing cruisers. So a nowadays a top natural heavy could UPVALUE his record by boxing cruisers. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION only. That is not the reason why I deleted all fights involving a sub-200 fighter. I deleted these fights because they are not counted as HEAVYWEIGHT as we define it today. Just check out Haye: 199.75 vs 199.25 is NOWADAYS the cruiseweight title. I don't see any reason to treat these weights differently just because a fight took place 40 years ago. They have been CALLED differently then. But what is more important: How they have been called or how heavy the opponents were?
4. Deleting below-200 fights (mixed or non-mixed) IS a problem in my calculation, as I have already said it. So far deleting mixed weights concerns mainly Joe Louis. Marciano and Dempsey are actually not even cruisers. Compare them rather with Roy Jones Jr, not with Lennox or Tyson.
5. Joe Louis' record gets WORSE when I keep MIXED fights in his record. Because now I include his losses against Ezzard Charles and Marciano. AND his non-KO wins against Bob Pastor, Cesar Brion (2x) and Jimmy Bivins (so his win-loss ratio gets worse and his KO ratio gets worse). Would I include ALL his below-200 fights then I would include also his loss against Max Schmeling. It's already funny: Basically whenever I re-check the calculations with formulas that old-time fans may feel better with the pasttime-boxers GET EVEN WORSE THAN THEY ALREADY ARE.
6. When I will run through all the stats I hope I will find a correlation between weight/height and KO ratio/self-KO ratio. So we can state more differentiated whether it's an advantage or an disadvantage to be below-200 to win a fight.

1) You see? It's not me who starts to talk about Wlad again.
2) To all those who think that Haye (as a cruiser world champ) can come and KO Klitschko and this will be a proof of how weak Klitschko is (or how pathetic the heavyweight division is): I hope that the same people will admit how weak the cruiser division is when Klitschko outclasses Haye.
3) From what we hear, Haye was TKOed 3 times (in the 5th round of an 8-rounder) by Kali Meehan. Was a test behind closed doors. So much for the state of the cruisers and the heavyweight division.

 

Ali is much better than Wlad.... on the clinching toplist.

AVERAGE clinching is approx. FOUR TIMES MORE than Klitschko. Even in his fight against Samuel Peter (where Klitschko clinched excessively: 20 seconds per round) he clinched HALF AS MUCH as Ali (average 40 seconds per round).

Even Lennox vs Tyson (where Lennox has been warned for excessive clinching) the average clinching (of Lennox) per round was merely 30 seconds.

I mean, JUST WATCH ALI's FIGHTS. He basically ends every 2nd of his or the opponents' attacks by grabbing, choking, insulting, head-down-pushing.

Just switch on Ali vs Frazier III (Thrilla in Manila), especially from round 9 on.