It is too obvious for us to deny anymore...

The word's "steroids" or "juiced" don't matter at all and arguing symantics is stupid and pointless.

It's simple economics. There was no real penalty for taking certain performance enhancing drugs in Pride. There is absolutely no reason that the fighters WOULDN'T do it, so it's hard to believe that a lot of them didn't take the opportunity when it came their way.

 

IMO...

There probably are quite a few steroid users in UFC and in Pride. But i think that difference between cage and ring is monumental. I always said that and always said thats why i dont think Fedor is gona be THAT big of a force in a cage. You have to TRAIN differently you have to change your strategy for the whole fight. And like i said it is SO much different for aggressive fighters because you cant corner people as easily. So first round CC and Rua ended up basicly running after their opponents while others were just back paddling and slipping pointless takedown attempts and kicks.
If anything for fighters like CC and Rua cage is a MAJOR factor in their gassing out. Obviously Gomi, drugs is a major factor in his gassing.

 

Ludicris!, if your a pro and can't make that transition you shouldn't be there.Sure it's a bit different but if a guy has a training camp and trains in a cage before his fight and looses you can't blame the fukin cage:verysad

 

And Scurlauntings do you believe O.J. is innocent? just a question for somebody who is in denial

 

What is so funny about that sentence is that you have no evidence what so ever to prove that, other than the they didnt do well in pride. Nothing else.

It amounts to, "Did well in pride=steroids", "Didnt do well in pride=clean".

Nice work detective. Be sure you dont spill your milk shake on the crime scene.

 

You have to have experience in the cage to know how to train for it. To know what to train. If you never had a fight in a cage before its different. If you're a pro and can't make the transition? Its not exactly easy even for a pro, especially when you consider stylistic changes and matchups. It is NOT a bit different its a BIG difference.

I'll tell you one thing right now, Couture would not have beaten Gonzaga in a ring.

 

I can not believe you didn't name equipose right off the bat. If there was ever a steroid created that was absolutely perfect for fighters to take it would be equipose and other boldenone derivatives. They cause significant gains in red blood cell count and can overnight cause significant increases in physical work capacity. Furthermore, the drug causes very dry gains without water bloating because it does not aromatize and has roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the anabolic properties of testosterone ethers so growing muscle into the next weight class isn't a big danger. It is also estimated to be the number one steroid sold in Brazilian and European black markets. Sam Sheridan, a sports writer, spent a year with BTT and has said that most fighters will take EQ or EPO in order to get more time on the mats without having to go out running and do other conditioning.

Of course, EQ also stays in the body longer than almost any drug which makes it an absolute impossibility for anyone who will be tested. Hmmm....wonder it took so long for some of these guys to get in the ring after being signed?

There is more to this than just drugs, but if you think that drugs aren't playing a huge part in the Pride fighters looking like a bunch of ****ing cans than your delusional. A big part of this was over rating by the hard cores because of the exotic look and feel of Pride.

 

As always, you sum it up pretty well, Donut. I was one of the people who overrated Pride fighters for a long time, and a big part of it was due to the fact Pride was so awesome to watch. I still miss freak show matches :good

And here is my equation:

No drugs + no cage experience + underestimating opponents = Pride fighters not named A. Silva and Rampage doing quite poorly.

 

And I guess my question is, why are those two in particular doing so good? The only thing I can draw in common between them is that they both left their camps and got with new trainers and coaches before fighting in the UFC. Rampage left Tito's camp and went with Juanito and Anderson got with Blackhouse.

Also, if you want to be a top MMA fighter you pretty much need to be in America on the West Coast. America has really leap frogged the world in training. These guys who were mediocre two years ago are now looking like studs after getting with camps like Extreme Couture, AKA, Greg Jackson's, Team Quest Temecula and Juanito's Big Bear Camps (Rampage and Kongo).

Either way, Fedor's debut in the UFC will the scariest night of my life. Surely, Fedor, the beacon standing there on the foggy shore will lead us to salvation.

 

Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out, as well. Neither man was considered stellar in Pride (like Shogun was), yet they both have made the best transition. Both also have the potential to be considered dominant in the UFC (Silva looks untouchable at middleweight, for the time being).

I buy the "they have cage experience" to a degree. I also think you're right about the camps. The west coast clearly has the best MMA camps in the world right now, and they train to the cage. It's also plausible that they didn't underestimate their opponents. Silva was the underdog against Franklin, and Ramapage knew what Liddell could do (having already fought him). That got both of them two huge wins and momemtum going forward.

I guess what it all boils down to is that MMA is an individual sport. It doesn't matter who you work for, it comes down to what you can do in the cage/ring. Silva and Rampage are going out and taking care of business.

 

I think Wanderlei saw this coming, and him leaving Chutebox after he got his UFC contract might have been a forecast of what was to come we all missed. Ninja and Shogun both got finished in a cage one week apart from each other. Wandy probably knew that to suceed in the UFC he would need to leave the stagnancy of training at Chute Box and move to America. I'm afraid that Shogun needs to do the same if he wants to reinvent himself as a cage fighter.

 

Jackson did pretty well in Pride, I didn't say I knew for sure they were clean, just that I could believe if they were, why is that outrageous? It wasn't the main point of the post, the cage part was.

 

We all know performance enhancers exists in all sports. One would be in denial to say that it didnt exist in Pride or UFC for that matter. The difference is that it seems to me that because the UFC has fights in certain places such as NEvada, which has stricter drug policies, fighters coming out of other organizations into UFC would have stopped taking enhancers if they were taking them.

Weather or not they enhance performance, those who use them ...those who have openely used them in different sports will all tell you they DO work. Lets not be ignorant or lie to ourselves. Not all steroids and illegal enhancers make you bulk up like a bodybuilder. There are some who simply add to performance ..weather it be to muscle performance and explosiveness. Why else would sprinters and runners, swimmers use them when competing for the Olympic Games? Many baseball players have used them and you wouldnt be able to tell they are using them unless someone told you. Case point, I had a friend who's GF's sister was dating a now retired baseball player who was using them. His HR count at the time went up higher than earlier in his career. When he had told me about it I didnt believe him....but a couple years later came out the scandal regarding roids in the Major Leagues.

Obviously, at this time, no one here has any hardcore proof to say all Pride guys or these guys crossing over to UFC were using Roids. however, history will teach us that when substances are not tested for, atheletes in that sport will more likely use them because they know they can get away with it.... We all know too that in the UFC, more and more MMA fighters have been getting caught juicing and they have to pay the consequences, so that of itself may keep some guys from doing it. But there are always guys out there who will their way around the system--find ways of getting stuff out of their systems before testing, etc... or find stuff that is not detectable

 

What you state is true.But you`ll find most users espcially bodybuilders use it mostly for good quality gains over a long period of time with the right amount of calories/protein intake.Most of the gains on Equipose are primarily for hardness in the muscle plus the water retention is alot less than other drugs like deca which aromatize very quickly.This being said theres is NO SUBSTITUTE for good cardio. Equipose or any other animal derivative WILL NOT give you overnight gains.Yes it will increase you vascularity due to increasing oxygen in your blood and your blood volume but you will not find the instant gains of which you speak of. People on this forum MUST understand that steroids/hormones/derivatives and precursors are NOT wonder drugs.If you combine them with good old fashioned hard work you get astounding results but wayyyy to many people are misinformed.

Just to give you an example we had one guy in our gym that was stacking deca and tamoxifen. He assumed by default that all he needed to do was simply take the gear and that was it.He turned up once in blue moon to train and occasionally to pick up his drugs. This is the typical attitude of most people who dont have the faintest idea on diet/supplementation/workout routines and most of all Steroids.

 

Nobody is saying they are wonder drugs, or that people are taking them and not working hard.

But all other things being equal
Doped version of the same fighter > Clean version of the same fighter, always, everytime, no exceptions.