Its shocking how strong the HW division is in the UK

Serge · Jun 5, 2016

It's a great time for Brits in combat sports in general. We have 13 world champions, including the WBA, IBF & WBO HW titles currently being held by Brits and champions at CW, SMW, MW, LMW, WW, LWW, 2 at LW, FW, and 2 at BW.

The British Lionhearts just booked themselves a place in the World Series of Boxing final, beating the reigning champions the mighty Astana Arlans Kazakhstan in the semi-finals.

And Michael Bisping just shocked the world last night by winning the UFC world middleweight title in a huge upset too. He KO'd the very highly regarded Luke Rockhold in a round, avenging a loss to Rockhold who had stopped him in 2 in November 2014. I think he's the first Brit to ever win a UFC world title. In fact, I can only think of 1 or 2 British MMA fighters who would be considered world class and the other one has retired.

Look at this article

'Britain's Boxing World Champions - how did all 13 win their belts?'

They have Lee Selby as the IBF SFW champion when he's actually the FW one and they have a pic of his brother Andrew instead of him atsch

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2...s---how-did-all-13-win-their-belts/lee-selby/

Clinton · Jun 5, 2016

Serge said: ↑

It's a great time for Brits in combat sports in general. We have 13 world champions, including the WBA, IBF & WBO HW titles currently being held by Brits and champions at CW, SMW, MW, LMW, WW, LWW, 2 at LW, FW, and 2 at BW.

The British Lionhearts just booked themselves a place in the World Series of Boxing final, beating the reigning champions the mighty Astana Arlans Kazakhstan in the semi-finals.

And Michael Bisping just shocked the world last night by winning the UFC world middleweight title in a huge upset too. He KO'd the very highly regarded Luke Rockhold in a round, avenging a loss to Rockhold who had stopped him in 2 in November 2014. I think he's the first Brit to ever win a UFC world title. In fact, I can only think of 1 or 2 British MMA fighters who would be considered world class and the other one has retired.

Look at this article

'Britain's Boxing World Champions - how did all 13 win their belts?'

They have Lee Selby as the IBF SFW champion when he's actually the FW one and they have a pic of his brother Andrew instead of him atsch

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2...s---how-did-all-13-win-their-belts/lee-selby/
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Indeed. The Brits are on fire right now. I'm specifically very impressed with AJ. With his size, skill and power, he's looking like a future Atg.

Serge · Jun 5, 2016

Clinton said: ↑

Indeed. The Brits are on fire right now. I'm specifically very impressed with AJ. With his size, skill and power, he's looking like a future Atg.
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Yeah Joshua is looking very formidable. Hopefully him and Fury get it on within the next year or so as it will be huge over here.

bailey · Jun 5, 2016

Clinton said: ↑

Something silly? On your part. You wrote that you would take the Hamed that beat Robinson, Johnson and Belcastro over MAB, because he 'boxed more then'. I wrote that Robinson was something like 21 9, Johnson was 33 years old and Belcastro was never anything special anyway, when Hamed beat them-hardly on MABs level. Lufcrazy wrote that Hamed was never as technically astute as MAB, which couldn't be more correct, and that he had seen all of Hamed's fights. I would happen to say that those written by Luf and myself are all correct statements.
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You also have to look at where Barrera was at that time and that was being outboxed by Jnr Jones and lucky not to have a stoppage loss except for a DQ where he looked gone.
Hamed at that time was more boxer than someone looking for the big punch, whereas Barrera changed his style later and became more boxer than brawler.
If you look at it that way Jnr Jones was a fighter who had been stopped twice and once by a fighter with many losses.
You have to look at where they were at the time and Im not convinced someone as young as Lufc was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro.
At that when Hamed was beating fighters like Johnson and Barrera was being beaten by Jnr Jones, I would have favoured Hamed.
The thread was prime Hamed, not damaged hands Hamed at the end of his career

bailey · Jun 5, 2016

Serge said: ↑

Yeah Joshua is looking very formidable. Hopefully him and Fury get it on within the next year or so as it will be huge over here.
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That would be a massive event.
I think the HWs in Britain in general is impressive.
I often felt that many fighters in Britain have too many tough fights as British champs before moving on (not just at HW), ending their best days before they have reached as high as I feel they could go.

Look at D Williams, as a HW in the UK. He challenged Francis and was outpointed but from there went on to have so many tough fights before getting a world title shot

Clinton · Jun 5, 2016

bailey said: ↑

You also have to look at where Barrera was at that time and that was being outboxed by Jnr Jones and lucky not to have a stoppage loss except for a DQ where he looked gone.
Hamed at that time was more boxer than someone looking for the big punch, whereas Barrera changed his style later and became more boxer than brawler.
If you look at it that way Jnr Jones was a fighter who had been stopped twice and once by a fighter with many losses.
You have to look at where they were at the time and Im not convinced someone as young as Lufc was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro.
At that when Hamed was beating fighters like Johnson and Barrera was being beaten by Jnr Jones, I would have favoured Hamed.
The thread was prime Hamed, not damaged hands Hamed at the end of his career
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The whole damaged hands excuse is very common amongst all of Hamed's fans. You sure you're not a fan? Lufcrazy is a highly respected boxing historian and one of the best posters I've ever seen. If he says that he has seen all of Naseem Hamed's fights, I've no doubt he has. Shame you think he's a liar. As far as MAB is concerned, he was pre-prime and still developing at 122 against Jones. In the rematch, he did far better than he did in the 1st place. So called 'prime' Hamed never fought anyone near the level of MAB. He had excellent reflexes, speed and power but always had a very poor boxing IQ. He was made to look like an amateur by MAB simply by MAB's utilization of his superior technical boxing skills. Prime MAB beats any version of Hamed. Pure talent can take you a good way, but not always to the end. There's a Hamed v Pacquiao thread on page 2 of the Classic. Feel free to join in.

Clinton · Jun 5, 2016

Serge said: ↑

Yeah Joshua is looking very formidable. Hopefully him and Fury get it on within the next year or so as it will be huge over here.
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Massive:good. Who do you like?

bailey · Jun 5, 2016

Clinton said: ↑

The whole damaged hands excuse is very common amongst all of Hamed's fans.
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It may well be. I couldnt say, but do recall when watching him at the time that he had hand problems due to the power of his punches

You sure you're not a fan?
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Not sure why it would matter if I was or wasnt, but no never was. Couldnt take to his personality, but did use to watch his fights. I watched the Barrera win several times and was a big Barrera fan from a long way back.

Lufcrazy is a highly respected boxing historian and one of the best posters I've ever seen.
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That doesnt say much at all for you, especially when he changes how he scores fights and his opinion so often. But hey thats your opinion and Im good with that.

If he says that he has seen all of Naseem Hamed's fights, I've no doubt he has.
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Good for you

Shame you think he's a liar.
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Read exactly what I wrote, rather than how you want to read something

not convinced someone as young as Lufc was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro.

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If you think someone so young at the time was watching that fight as it happened, so be it.
That doesnt mean he hasnt seen the fight, but if you werent watching at the time, you wouldnt know as much about the fighters or significance as you would if living the time.
Do you think he was watching his fights against Buckley?

As far as MAB is concerned, he was pre-prime and still developing at 122 against Jones.
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So now you are painting yourself into a corner.
So Barrera was pre prime in his 10th world title fight in over 40 fights atsch
You are falling into exactly what I wrote in how they were in different stages of their careers where they were fighting in different styles to how they progressed later.
At that time Barrera was more of a pressure brawler who later became a boxer, whereas Hamed early in his career was a boxer who later looked to land a big punch more than box.

In the rematch, he did far better than he did in the 1st place.

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He didnt get hit with the KO shot but still lost and remember with your triangle theory and talk of levels that Jnr Jones was knocked out on a Naz undercard in his fight after. Sure if you were watching back then you will remember because it was an excellent fight

So called 'prime' Hamed never fought anyone near the level of MAB.
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Not many fighters would be deemed as Barreras level as Barrera is a modern day legend, but at the time when I think Hamed was prime, it was Barrera that was being KOd by Jnr Jones and not getting the Hamed fight at that time due to the loss.
You seem to be trying to rewrite history and I can only think you may not have been watching it all unfold when it was live.

He had excellent reflexes, speed and power but always had a very poor boxing IQ. He was made to look like an amateur by MAB simply by MAB's utilization of his superior technical boxing skills. Prime MAB beats any version of Hamed.
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Barrera improved his boxing skills as he developed but alot of those excellent skills werent on display until Barrera fought Salud. By that time Hamed was neglecting alot of the skills that he had used on the way up and looking for the big punch, as well as not being as active. look at how Hamed was more reckless in previous fight against Sanchez or even before that.

As it stands I dont think the Hamed looking for a big punch would beat Barrera the boxer but dont think Barrera the brawler would have beaten Hamed the boxer when he was a focused fighter and not making weight late on

Hamed at that time was a very hard to hit awkward fighter with a big punch and I dont think the Barrera losing to Jnr Jones would have won against prime Hamed

Pure talent can take you a good way, but not always to the end. There's a Hamed v Pacquiao thread on page 2 of the Classic. Feel free to join in
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Thanks for the offer, but I dont stay on here as often and have been getting a bit bored of it lately
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Clinton · Jun 5, 2016

bailey said: ↑

It may well be. I couldnt say, but do recall when watching him at the time that he had hand problems due to the power of his punches
Not sure why it would matter if I was or wasnt, but no never was. Couldnt take to his personality, but did use to watch his fights. I watched the Barrera win several times and was a big Barrera fan from a long way back.
That doesnt say much at all for you, especially when he changes how he scores fights and his opinion so often. But hey thats your opinion and Im good with that.
Good for you

Read exactly what I wrote, rather than how you want to read something

If you think someone so young at the time was watching that fight as it happened, so be it.
That doesnt mean he hasnt seen the fight, but if you werent watching at the time, you wouldnt know as much about the fighters or significance as you would if living the time.
Do you think he was watching his fights against Buckley?

So now you are painting yourself into a corner.
So Barrera was pre prime in his 10th world title fight in over 40 fights atsch
You are falling into exactly what I wrote in how they were in different stages of their careers where they were fighting in different styles to how they progressed later.
At that time Barrera was more of a pressure brawler who later became a boxer, whereas Hamed early in his career was a boxer who later looked to land a big punch more than box.
He didnt get hit with the KO shot but still lost and remember with your triangle theory and talk of levels that Jnr Jones was knocked out on a Naz undercard in his fight after. Sure if you were watching back then you will remember because it was an excellent fight
Not many fighters would be deemed as Barreras level as Barrera is a modern day legend, but at the time when I think Hamed was prime, it was Barrera that was being KOd by Jnr Jones and not getting the Hamed fight at that time due to the loss.
You seem to be trying to rewrite history and I can only think you may not have been watching it all unfold when it was live.

Barrera improved his boxing skills as he developed but alot of those excellent skills werent on display until Barrera fought Salud. By that time Hamed was neglecting alot of the skills that he had used on the way up and looking for the big punch, as well as not being as active. look at how Hamed was more reckless in previous fight against Sanchez or even before that.

As it stands I dont think the Hamed looking for a big punch would beat Barrera the boxer but dont think Barrera the brawler would have beaten Hamed the boxer when he was a focused fighter and not making weight late on

Hamed at that time was a very hard to hit awkward fighter with a big punch and I dont think the Barrera losing to Jnr Jones would have won against prime Hamed

Thanks for the offer, but I dont stay on here as often and have been getting a bit bored of it lately
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Hamed 's supporters ALWAYS use the damaged hands excuse. It's part of their makeup. That indicates your a fan as well. In 3 of his 4 fights before MAB, Hamed emphatically stopped Bungu, Sanchez and Ingle. Logically that doesn't indicate 'damaged hands'.

Just curious, what issues with Lufcrazy do you have that he 'changes his opinions' or how he 'scores fights'? Examples might make your case. Without them, you don't have a case.

I never wrote Lufcrazy 'watched all of Hamed's fights as they happened.' I wrote that he said he has seen all of Hamed's fights and that I believed him. You wrote that you weren't convinced that someone as young as Lufcrazy was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro. Why would that matter if he saw it live or later? His knowledge of the sport, as well as its history and the significance of the bouts at their particular points in time, is expansive and on par with anyone's, despite his age.

Barrera had had a lot of experience when he fought Jones, but there is something that your failure to mention demonstrates your agenda. MAB turned pro when he was a teenager and fought Jones when he was 22 and 23. He was pre prime unless youre going to claim that he was prime which means that the Junior Jones MAB would have been as good as the one that beat Morales according to your logic. Care to clarify?

I never brought up any triangle theory. You did. The only one painting himself into a corner is you. In the other(since deleted) thread you're the one that claimed that the Hamed that fought Belcastro, Robinson and Johnson would have beaten MAB. And you're the one that initially mentioned Jones. I wrote that those 3 weren't anywhere near MAB's level and that prime MAB would have beaten any version of Hamed. Spin it anyway you want, but that's what we wrote.

And as far as Hamed 'going away from his boxing' is concerned, that's just another excuse, which is nothing new. He was a showboater that engaged in silliness when he fought inferior opposition. As Lufcrazy correctly stated, he was NEVER as technically astute as MAB. Quite frankly, Hamed always had a low boxing IQ. Against the technical genius that was MAB, he simply had no answer. He was made to look amateurish, which he was, despite his prodigious natural gifts.
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Serge · Jun 6, 2016

bailey said: ↑

That would be a massive event.
I think the HWs in Britain in general is impressive.
I often felt that many fighters in Britain have too many tough fights as British champs before moving on (not just at HW), ending their best days before they have reached as high as I feel they could go.

Look at D Williams, as a HW in the UK. He challenged Francis and was outpointed but from there went on to have so many tough fights before getting a world title shot
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Yeah a lot of British title fights can be really gruelling affairs and all out wars. As you say, Danny Williams had a lot of tough fights. There were quite a few very solid British HWs around back then and many of them fought each other, some numerous times. Williams, Sprott, Francis, Welch, Oyebola, Pele Reid etc.

Serge · Jun 6, 2016

Clinton said: ↑

Massive:good. Who do you like?
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It's a difficult one to predict. Joshua is very powerful and he's quick too, whereas Fury is more fluid and a better boxer. I can easily envisage seeing Joshua winning via stoppage but I can also just as easily envisage seeing Fury out boxing him and making him look bad. Who do you lean towards in this one?

bailey · Jun 6, 2016

Clinton said: ↑

Hamed 's supporters ALWAYS use the damaged hands excuse. It's part of their makeup. That indicates your a fan as well.

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Me noting someone having damaged hands, when it appears they probably genuinely did doesnt mean anything unless you are completely stupid.
Then again the comment of YOUR a fan speaks volumes. You can work it out

In 3 of his 4 fights before MAB, Hamed emphatically stopped Bungu, Sanchez and Ingle. Logically that doesn't indicate 'damaged hands'.

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You may notice he was off longer between fights at that time. Hamed was a massive puncher and could stop fighters even when he had hand problems. There were times he had stopped fighters and mentioned in interviews that he thought his hand was broken.
Mayweather had damaged hands but scored a clean stoppage over Ortiz, so do you believe that Mayweather suddenly didnt have bad hands that day when he had previously atsch.
No, you believe I am a fan because I noted a big puncher had hand problems due to being a big puncher. Stupid even by your standards. Note Your

Just curious, what issues with Lufcrazy do you have that he 'changes his opinions' or how he 'scores fights'? Examples might make your case. Without them, you don't have a case.

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Whos trying to build a case.
Lufc has changed his scorecards for at least 2 fights that I know of. Getting into debates with posters, when arguing how he has scored fights and then coming back and saying he has just rewatched and then agrees.
I dont need to mount a case or really care to as he admits as much himself.
Seems you want a case to be made which seems that you are trying to argue for arguements sake, which is often what happens when someone realises their original points look daft. Probably why you called me a fan for noting a boxers damaged hands

I never wrote Lufcrazy 'watched all of Hamed's fights as they happened.' I wrote that he said he has seen all of Hamed's fights and that I believed him. You wrote that you weren't convinced that someone as young as Lufcrazy was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro.
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Once again. Exactly what I wrote
not convinced someone as young as Lufc was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro.

not convinced someone as young as Lufc was watching Hamed when fighting Belcastro.

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I never said anything about what you wrote in regards to Lufc watching Hamed. This is you going all over the place

Why would that matter if he saw it live or later? His knowledge of the sport, as well as its history and the significance of the bouts at their particular points in time, is expansive and on par with anyone's, despite his age.

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Do you think someone watching odd highlights of past fights has the same knowledge as someone watching them live when living in the hype was happening and when fans were talking to each other about up and coming fights? Really?
If you do, I struggle to believe you would have been watching alot of the fights as they happened.

Barrera had had a lot of experience when he fought Jones, but there is something that your failure to mention demonstrates your agenda. MAB turned pro when he was a teenager and fought Jones when he was 22 and 23. He was pre prime unless youre going to claim that he was prime which means that the Junior Jones MAB would have been as good as the one that beat Morales according to your logic. Care to clarify?

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so what if Barrera was pre prime or not (which I dont think he was). I wrote that I dont think the brawler version of Barrera would have beaten the boxer version of Hamed or that the wild swinging Hamed would have beaten the boxer version of Barrera.
Still in answer it depends on the fighter. Look at how Benitez was a world champ at 17 but at 24 onwards started losing many fights. So was that in his prime at 24?
This is your logic

I never brought up any triangle theory. You did.
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You did on the other thread when noting some of the fighters Hamed beat and who they lost to or would lose to, so I pointed out that at that time Barrera had lost also.
Seems you can only see things one way.
As I said before, I dont think the version of Barrera that was losing to Jones would have beaten Hamed at that time and I would add, they were of similar age so was one prime to you and not the other atsch. Fighters age differently. Wear and tear happens in different ways

The only one painting himself into a corner is you. In the other(since deleted) thread you're the one that claimed that the Hamed that fought Belcastro, Robinson and Johnson would have beaten MAB. And you're the one that initially mentioned Jones. I wrote that those 3 weren't anywhere near MAB's level and that prime MAB would have beaten any version of Hamed. Spin it anyway you want, but that's what we wrote.

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Yes I think that version of Hamed would have beaten Barrera and when you consider how at that time Barrera was being beaten by Jnr Jones, not once but twice and who also wouldnt have been considered anywhere near the level of Barrera if you are looking back on it now like you are. thats the corner you have put yourself in!

And as far as Hamed 'going away from his boxing' is concerned, that's just another excuse, which is nothing new. He was a showboater that engaged in silliness when he fought inferior opposition. As Lufcrazy correctly stated, he was NEVER as technically astute as MAB. Quite frankly, Hamed always had a low boxing IQ. Against the technical genius that was MAB, he simply had no answer. He was made to look amateurish, which he was, despite his prodigious natural gifts
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the wild swinging version of Hamed was looking well beaten by the more technical Barrera but that wasnt the version of Hamed that used to box more and I would think even you could see Hamed used to box more.
Im not sure what the going away from boxing excuse is that you mentioned but do recall at first Hamed was fighting around 4 times a year as champ at first but over the last few years was only boxing a couple of times. Not sure if that is what you are going on about?
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bailey · Jun 6, 2016

Serge said: ↑

Yeah a lot of British title fights can be really gruelling affairs and all out wars. As you say, Danny Williams had a lot of tough fights. There were quite a few very solid British HWs around back then and many of them fought each other, some numerous times. Williams, Sprott, Francis, Welch, Oyebola, Pele Reid etc.
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Pele Reid before the Francis fight was looking very impressive. Its what I have wrote before how after one loss some fighters dont seem to come back the same

Serge · Jun 6, 2016

bailey said: ↑

Pele Reid before the Francis fight was looking very impressive. Its what I have wrote before how after one loss some fighters dont seem to come back the same
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Yeah he did look pretty beastly. He was 13-0 (13 KOs) going into the Francis fight and then after losing that via stoppage he lost 2 more on the spin, both also via stoppage. After that he picked up a couple of wins against cans and then went 0-1-2 in his next 3. The 2 draws were against guys with 4-16-1 and 2-8-0 records, and the loss was against Sprott. That was when he was still in his prime years too.

Loudon · Jun 6, 2016

bailey said: ↑

Ive wrote its arguable as all cases are, but I think there is a strong case for him being so
In the UK it is booming, especially when there are so few HWs in the UK
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:good

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Its shocking how strong the HW division is in the UK

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Its shocking how strong the HW division is in the UK

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