Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills

Getting KO'd by a body shot from a washed up 33-year old middleweight isn't much better.

 

Good point.

 

There's no way for anybody to ever really know it. I think there are too many question marks around the fight for it to really count for much when considering Dempsey's career, but there's no way to know it was a dive.

 

Well he seemed to handle Tommy Gibbons pretty well, how many rounds did Gibbons win in their fight?

 

You mean that skinny light heavyweight?

 

Yes that skinny Light heavyweight who was only 12 1/2 lbs the lighter man ,and who is acknowledged as a fine boxer.
PS Gibbons scaled 5 1/2lbs more than Conn did against Louis in their first fight.

 

Incidentally, this is misleading. Wills in fact avoided some prominent white fighters willing to meet him, like Gibbons and Tunney. Using the same standards you used for Tunney and Dempsey, you should be criticizing him for "ducking" those two.

 

I have read several times that Wills refused to fight Godfrey as well.

 

to expose suzie qs bias

 

I dont blame Wills for not fighting the dangerous young tigers,he merited a title shot years earlier,that cannot be denied[and Im a big Dempsey fan]. Nat Fleischer ,who somewhat courageously championed Wills ,in those still racist times, did get a bit irritated at Mullins ,Wills manager ,Nat wrote a piece saying that he kept Wills on a diet of well chewed meat ,meaning he avoided the real threats ,but Wills was going into his late 30's by then so who can blame him?

 

This is evidence. Good for you. But the quote indicates Langford was challenging Willard, not that Willard or the promoters would ever have entertained such a challenge from a black fighter.

 

"Wills in fact avoided some prominent white fighters williing to meet him"

Not exactly. This is from TIME Magazine, April 7, 1924

quoting Tex Rickard----"Wills agrees to fight any heavyweight I select, leading up to a meeting with Dempsey."

TIME then explained "Wills was expected to meet Firpo. If Firpo retired, Wills would fight Spalla. If Wills wins, Richard will let him have at Dempsey in September."

I don't see how Wills can be accused of ducking anyone when he agreed to fight 'any heavyweight'. The man chosen was Firpo and Wills defeated him badly, winning every round according to the New York Times report. And what happened?

TIME Magazine 7-27-1925

"Jack Dempsey reached an agreement to fight whomever Tex Rickard should select--one bout this year, one next. His first opponent will be Gene Tunney, George Godfrey, or Jack Renault. Then, if not defeated, he will face Harry Wills."

So Wills wins the elimination Rickard has set up and then drops behind three other guys.

My judgement is that Wills was getting the run-a-round and there was no way he ever going to get a shot at Dempsey.

Dempsey probably agreed. Wills was not going to get a shot if Dempsey beat Tunney. Ever.

New York Times--September 13, 1926, page 27

"Harry Will will never get a chance at the world's heavyweight championship title while Jack Dempsey remains the titleholder nor will Wills get a chance to make money with Dempsey as a medium. This was the emphatic declaration made here this afternoon by Dempsey in response to a question by one of the newspaper men who visited the titleholder in the dressing room before the day's workout."

 

Good stuff!

 

just on Wills, I came across this description of his fight with Sam Langford in New York in December, 1915. It is a long article and I don't know how to transfer it. The article did state that Langford was most effective when he trapped Wills on the ropes. The description of the young Wills is the best I have seen.

New York Times, December 4, 1915, page 13

"Harry Wills, the New Orleans colored heavyweight, easily outpointed and outfought Sam Langford of Boston in the ten-round bout last night at the Harlem Sporting Club, 135th Street. The Southern boxer is a fast and clever performer for a man of his weight, and throughout this entire ten rounds, except at intervals when Langford forced him against the ropes, he gave the Boston boxer a lesson on the scientific points of the game. Wills won the honers in seven of the ten rounds, two were even, and one-the ninth-went to Langford."

"As the bout progressed, Wills managed to keep the Boston boxer off with a stiff left hand jab."

"In the closing round, both made a whilewind finish, but Wills, by keeping his left hand in his opponent's face landed more effectively and cleanly, and the final bell found him winning by a large margin."

I hope someone can transfer this whole article over to this thread.

I think it interesting that Wills is described as at least a relatively fast and skilled boxer with a strong jab. He seems able to dominate Langford. I would note that Langford lost every decision (except one six round draw, I think) to Wills with his only wins via two late round knockouts.