Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills

Tunney was open to fighting Wills but Harry was not too excited by the prospect. There's justification to some degree in that he thought rightly he deserved a shot in Dempsey. However, every fighter, I don't care who they are, has opponents he would prefer over others. Ducking has many shades, from outright a'la Bowe-Lewis to the guy who stays busy with easier opponents until his nemesis ages or gets beat, to the guy who makes a career out of fighting naturally smaller or past their prime "name" opponents.

 

Interesting that this article calls Wills "fast", despite the bigger man. So much for the "Dempsey always beat the slow, big men"-reasoning when saying he has no chance against Dempsey.

 

Sure, but Dempsey's ducking of Wills was at the very bottom. Probably the worst duck-job in the history of boxing. Disgraceful.

 

Not even close. This argument is so incredibly tedious and redundant. Of course, it stands as one of the sports greatest disappointments that the two did not meet. However, the truth remains that Dempsey did sign for the fight and that his management- not necessarily him- fought to avoid the fight on several grounds due more to their past and proclivities than to Jack's. Before adding fuel to this extremely tired fire, let me just add this perspective...

Back in the 20's sports entered the true realm of show business in terms of scale and dollars. Promotion entered the game in a new, incredibly powerful role. The dollar became the only dictate. Matchmaking became soley about drawing the largest audience with "a story" and retaining the title for the next defense. Wills did not offer an overly-compelling story nor did he guarantee future defenses for Dempsey. This said, promotions in the realm of boxing was new and rather crude. Today, one would think a Dempsey-Wills trilogy would be a gold mine. Back then, I think their approach was more conservative and less imaginative. All said, the real culprits in this affair were Rickard and Jacobs.

 

No fighter, I mean NO ONE, is defended with the same BS that Dempsey is. Did you actually read the quote from NY-times that Old Fogey dug up? There Dempsey himself plainly stated that Wills never would get a shot at his title.

And hiding behind one's management is BS, as well. If Patterson had done that Liston would probably never have gotten a title shot either.

Dempsey ducked the nr. 1 contender for his entire reign, and the nr. 2 for a sizeable portion of it. Which other champion, in any weight class, has done this during so many years?

 

There is another aspect you have to look at.

Dempsey signed to fight Wills in New York State and the NYST athletic comision refused to sanction the bout for fear that it would cause race riots.

This is the best part.

The same athletic comision later striped Dempsey of his liscence to fight in that state for not meeting Wills!!!!

The esentials said:

"You have to fight Wills but dont do it in our backyard".

Is it any wonder that Dempsey lost patience with them?

 

The mental contortions of those who spout Jack Johnson's greatness are either the product of ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. Completely unparalleled.

I agree, Dempsey's legacy has holes. But many of these occurred because of the changing era in which he fought, both socially and in the evolution of the sport. This does not make him a better or worse fighter, just less proven. Wills does not become a better fighter by the fact he and Dempsey never fought, just as Dempsey does not become a lesser fighter because of this.

 

It doesn't say whether Willard was going to entertain any of those challengers, white or black. The fact still remains, the papers had no qualms about denoting a black man as being a serious title contender. In fact, I'd say they were actually doing Langford a favor by listing his name here, given that he was embarrassed by Fulton just a few months earlier and didn't deserve a title shot over him (which, incidentally, the article goes on to say). If Willard and his people ever did entertain his challenge, I'd say they were wrong to do so.

 

Bingo! :good

 

You want DMT's Bias

here it is


DMT wrote

DMT wrote

Anyone remember that?

 

"If Willard and his people ever did entertain his challenge, I'd say they were wrong to do so"

Well, they didn't, before he fought Fulton or afterwards. And if Langford had beaten Fulton and also later Dempsey, they still wouldn't have.

That is my judgement.

 

My2sense who is in denial tunney ducked Godfrey


TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH

"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925





EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson



Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."



Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.



One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:

All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.



As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight." - ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.




"Tunney wanted nothing to do with Godfrey--plain and simple--too tough a fight. Godfrey is vastly under-rated. His record and career are somewhat mired in mystery. So many DQ's, knockouts and damn mystifying losses. I have no doubt, for instance, that he had the cuffs on against Sharkey. The high number of DQ's has more to do with him fighting to order than it does with him being sloppy. Tunney could outbox most heavies and I don't doubt that he could outbox George Godfrey for 5 or six or even ten rounds. However, George was fast for his size, was adept at chasing men down and could hit like a team of mules. If this were a fifteen round fight, I see Godfrey having a hell of chance catching up to Gene. Remember that Tunney's heavyweight resume is not that long or overly impressive. His two best wins were against Dempsey--over 10 rounds--and it is probable that Jack was past it then. Godfrey handled Larry Gaines fairly easily and Gaines was a boxer in both the mold and style of Tunney. Gaines stated that he feared only two men in his life, his father and George Godfrey. George was a beast--big, athletic, huge puncher and surprisingly good speed and movement for a man his size. I think in his prime, 1925-1931, he was about as good as it got. Nobody really wanted to fight George, and for good reason. Tunney avoided him like the plague. In his prime, with no handcuffs, and this is strictly my opinion, I think he could have beaten, Tunney, Sharkey, Carnera and maybe even Dempsey(certainly a post 1926 Dempsey)."- Boxing historian Kevin Smith Author of Sundowners





"Not only did Tunney duck Godfrey but so did Dempsey and Wills. From late 1923 Baron (James) Dougherty issued challenges almost daily for Wills to take on Godfrey, who was Philadelphia's greatest drawing card. Promoters Herman Taylor and Bobby Gunnis figured such a match in Phila would do between $250 K to $500 K. and the winner would be the "logical challenger" for Dempsey. Dougherty offered all kinds of perks to Wills including that Godfrey would take the match for $ 1. I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision. His first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.I still believe Godfrey was the most "handcuffed" boxer of all time. Being the "most handcuffed boxer of all time" (my opinion) doesn't mean that he was the best of his period, just the "most feared" with the cuffs off. By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition."- Chuck Hasson Boxing Historian

 

Please provide ONE source which states Harry Wills ducked Tommy Gibbons, and please provide once source where Wills refused to fight tunney pre 1924 when Wills was not a 35 year old tired past his prime fighter.


Old Fogster here just posted an article which harry wills said he was willing to meet ANYBODY. Also Harry Wills had already been ducked and avoided by white fighters for the past 5-7 years prior to 1925. He shouldnt need to fight anybody to gather a shot at dempseys crown he proved himself.


jack dempsey said the winner of Wills-Fulton he would defend his title against gauranteed. After Wills DESTROYED fulton, dempsey signed the next day to fight terminally ill billy miske. go figure

 

Its called reading fight reports. Charles swept the early rounds by outfighting valdez in close and landing the body shots. Valdez took over late. The decision was close but clear. if two of the judges altered there scorecard by 1 round, the fight would have been a draw.

I have seen Jackson fight on film many times and read countless newspaper reports. He was not world class fighter material.

Valdez lost 4 times in 1953. He did not have enough drawing power then to make the fight a realistic one. he LOST FOUR TIMES THAT YEAR!!!

I already explained this. Marciano used cockell as a tuneup for a mega showdown for a fight with the title eliminator winner of Valdez/Moore. Marciano had already fought EVERY SINGLE Ring magazine # 1 heavyweight contender(Walcott, lastarza, charles 2x) and after that horrible cut nose, he needed a tuneup before a big showdown. A Marciano-Valdez fight was booked for Miami in the winter. Moore blocked it and earned a FINAL TITLE ELIMINATOR to fight the rock. All Valdez had to do was beat Archie Moore, HE LOST. Marciano destroyed moore in 9 rounds.

1. Right after Valdez lost a one sided shutout decision to a glass jawed 5'10 180lb bob satterfield getting outslugged toe to toe for 10 rounds.

2. Yes with the win over Cockell. It put Valdez back on the map. So what did the IBC do? Stage another title eliminator for Valdez to have his shot. However, Valdez LOST a dreadfull one sided decision to bob baker in yet ANOTHER title eliminator(his 2nd blown oppertunity and lost another chance at marciano

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Which is why after Marciano rematched ring magazine # 1 Ezzard Charles, they immediatley began negotiations with nino valdez manager gleason for a match in 1955.

Charles was the # 1 contender and had just taken marciano to one of the most gruelling 15 round fights of all time, that was also a close decision. A rematch was warranted not only for the reputation of both boxers, but more the fans as well. I believe a fighter deserves alot of credit for rematching after close fights.

Yes but not until AFTER marciano had already beaten charles. Charles was the # 1 ring magazine heavyweight contender going into both marciano fights, and was listed as "most logical contender" by NBA going in as well.

Yes as a Tuneup. Imagine that, Marciano management used a # 2 rated heavyweight contender as a tuneup for a big fight with Valdez. Weill was smart. He chose Cockell first to test Rocky's nose in san fransisco, and arranged a showdown with Valdez in Miami of 1955 where there would be a large latino crowd. Ultimatley Moore stepped in, got a final title eliminator and Valdez could not beat a 38 year old man.

Please provide a source where the american media critisized marciano of ducking nino valdez?