Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

You obviously think that Boxrec is everything!

I did not squirm once, despite being very sympathetic to the Greb argument.

 

You call them possible narratives, but what they are in fact possible scenarios.

You also tend to forget that Jack Dempsey can only see the boxrec profile prior to the fight.

 

Here is an article by Robert Edgren on Greb - Dempsey:
The evening world., May 15, 1922, Wall Street Final Edition, Page 18, Image 18
Greb Anxious to Tackle Dempsey if Successful in Tunney Bout.
The Greb-Tunney match scheduled for May 23 ls the next thing to a heavyweight championship bout. The big fellows Always draw. Llttle men put up a fast, clever exhibition of boxing, but the "sock" Isn't there. They make a pretty picture, but they lack the big "bam"
that lifts the spectators off their, seats and makes them feel every punch. There's nothing- awe-lnsplrlng In their
work. A Jeffries, a Fitzslmmons, Dempsey,
Willard, Langford, any of the big fellows with the wallop, always kept us gasping for breath In sympathy with the fellow taking It. It may be the cave man In us that
makes us take Joy In the spectacle of two ring behemoths crashing together and landing- mighty swats just plain atavism. But If there wasn't a bit of the cave man spirit left in these days of Prohibition, reform-for-the-money-that's-in-it and all of that sort of
Jolly old rot, the world would be a dull place to live in.
The winner of the Tunney-Greb battle may attract Carpentler over for another American trip. And
Georges against either of them would be a dandy match. Carpentler, in hls weight class. Is a wonderful ring man.
Dempsey was too big for him, but against Greb or Tunney the flylng Frenchman -would put up a s****
worth crossing the country to see.
GEORGE ENGEL, who manages Greb says that nothing short of an earthquake or a cyclone can keep Harry from winning. “And after that, within three or four months," says George, "you're going to see Greb In the ring with
Dempsey. Greb has one Idea fixed in his head. It's that he can whip Dempsey over any route from fifteen
rounds up, or a 'shorter route If Jack Insists on It. He has helped Dempsey train several times and he knows every move Dempsey makes. Dempsey never has been able to Hold Greb off and he couldn't do It In a fight.
" 'The way to whip Dempsey,' Greb says, 'Is to keep him on his heels. Don't let him set for a punch. Stay on top of him and never stop hitting, and he can't do a thing.'
"If Greb gets on with Dempsey the world is going to see the busiest fifteen rounds, if It goes that far, ever pulled off In a ring."

 

Evening star., June 29, 1922, Page 30, Image 30
DEMPSEY-GREB FIGHT IS LATEST PROPOSAL
NEW YORK. June 29-An effort is being made to arrange a world heavyweight championship bout between Champion Jack Dempsey and Harry Greb of Pittsburgh American light heavyweight champion. George Engle, manager of Greb, has returned from Pittsburgh with an offer from a syndicate of prominent Pittsburgh sportsmen, who are prepared, according to Engle, to
arrange the bout for Pittsburgh on Labor day. Details of the proposition were not disclosed by Engle. He visited the offices of Jack Kearns, manager of Dempsey, In order personally to submit the proposition to the
champion's business manager. Kearns. however, had departed for Providence. Dan McKetrlck, who is associated with Kearns, announced that an offer for a Dempsey-Greb bout had been received by wire from
Pittsburgh and that Kearns has replied with a request for a definite proposition.
Engle declared that he had accepted terms on behalf of Greb and had assured the Pittsburgh syndicate rep
resentatives of his readiness to close a match for his boxer with the world heavyweight champion. Greb's manager, however, delayed formally signing a contract until a proposition is submitted to Kearns.
In the event that the bout Is arranged it will take the place of the proposed Dempsey-Greb contest which
was contemplated for Philadelphia this summer. Engle declared that he has not had any definite negotiations with Jimmy Dougherty. Quaker City promoter, with regard to this contest, and expressed a preference
for a bout in Pittsburgh if it was agreeable to Kearns and Dempsey.

 

My argument with you is from 1920 -1923.Your timescale.

 

You have made a lot of posts since I braced you on the subject of Dempsey being employed in a brothel, so I presume you are ready to reveal the evidence regarding Dempsey being employed as a *****master ,breaking in young girls?


I am awaiting your response.

 

Bisbee daily review., January 03, 1922, Page Page Three, Image 3
Opponents For Dempsey Are Mighty Scarce
Who will be Jack Dempsey's next ,opponent?
Fred Fulton is being prominently mentioned.
It will be recalled that Fulton didn't last very long against Dempsev in their previous meeting. After the two fighters were introduced, they squared off, Dempsey cut loose a swing, and Fulton kissed the floor. Exit.
The latest in heavyweight circles is that Harry Greb of Pittsburg will be the next fighter to dispute Dempsey's right to the title. Greb will shortly meet Johnny Wilson, holder of the middleweight title. The bout will be staged at Madison Square Garden. Most of the critics feel sure that Greb will lift the crown. The result of that bout alone, is holding up the proposed Dempsey Greb go. If Greb loses to Wilson, then such a bout would have no drawing power. However, if he wins the middleweight title, such a meeting would attract wide attention.
A lot of people will scoff at the idea of Greb meeting Dempsey. Greb has a much better chance than did Carpentier. He is bigger and sturdier than the Europeon champion. While Dempsey's physical advantages would make him a big favorite over Greb, still the bout wouldn't be as lopsided as it seems. Remember Bob Fitzsimmons was never much more than a middleweight, if you merely consider poundage.

 

Yeah Miske was so ill he fought for a further5 years losing ONE fight .You're hate is akin to Mendoza's and I cannot be more disparaging than that!
sd

 

The Ogden standard-examiner., July 05, 1922, LAST EDITION - 4 P. M., Page 10, Image 10
GREB AND DEMPSEY
By Grantland Rice
A Dempsey-Greb meeting would have Its point of Interest. There is even the outside chance that Greb might go the route and pester the champlon as he pestered Gibbons and Tunney. But he is too fine a little fighter to risk the annihilation that might follow from a bigger stronger man.
Dempsey isn't Gibbons or Tunney, Greb would probably hit him four times to one, but Dempsey'e once If planted on a vulnerable spot, would be destructive. Yet a man must keep moving on and outside of Carpentler, Dempsey is the only goal left.

 

I have often said that Dempsey’s most vocal critics are looking for a simple answer to a complex question.

The newspaper articles offered up by dempsey1234 illustrate this point rather well.

 

Nothing like reading about things from people who were there and from writers who were known at the time and considered knowledgeable. Here is another, from Robert Edgren.
The Washington herald., October 31, 1921, Image 6
GREB OR GIBBONS?
WHICH WILL FIGHT GEORGES?
By ROBERT EDGREN.
TOM GIBBONS and Harry Greb are matched for a fifteen
round decision bout at Madison Square Garden in November. This ought to be one of the best contests of the year between big men. It will show whether or not Jack Dempsey is to have another challenger. If Gibbons can get away with Greb there isn't a doubt that he can give even Dempsey a fight, for Greb has often worked out with Dempsey and is the one sparring partner who could make the champion step.
Gibbons and Greb are the pick of America's light heavyweights. There has been a keen rivalry between them. Each tried hard to get a match with Carpentler before the Frenchman fought Dempsey. In fact Greb would have been matched with Carpentler when he first came to this country to fight, if promoters and the "wise ones" backing the French champion hadn't been a little bit doubtful of the outcome of such a fight. Where the question of giving Carpentler a bout came up I recommended Greb as the best man available In his class, and the suggestion was received coldly. A few
days later it was announced that Carpentler would fight Battling Levinsky. The outcome showed that the Frenchman's supporters were taking no chances. They knew Bat Levlnsky was all through as a first class boxer, and that he'd be easy picking for Georges. It turned out
just that way. Levinsky made hardly any fight at all, and was easily knocked out. If Harry Greb had been in tne
ring that day over in Jersey there might have been another story to tell when the fight was over, and possibly there might not have been a Dempsey-Carpentler match afterward.
Greb Lacks Weight.
Greb is a small light-heavyweight. He mlght possibly make the modern middleweight limit of 160 pounds. For all that he is a powerful, stocky fellow a heavyweight in everything but tipping the scales. He is like some of the
great welters and middlewelghts of a few years ago who fought all the big heavyweights, and his short stature only 5 feet 8 Inches has been no handicap to him in the
ring. It may be remembered that we've had some wonderfully good men who were no taller than Greb. Sam Langford, who was one of the best a few years ago, stood only 5 feet 6 1/2 Inches. Joe Walcott, who, as
welterweight champion, knocked out heavyweight Joe Choynski and challenged Tom Sharkey, Jim Corbett; Gus Ruhlin, Peter Maher and many other heavyweights immediately afterward, without getting an
answer from any of them, was only 5 feet 1 inch tall.
Tom Sharkey, who gave big Jim Jeffries a terrific twenty-five round fight for the world's championship was only 5 foot 8 3/8 Inches tall, and Jeffries still tells me that of all the men he ever fought Tom Sharkey gave him the most trouble, because he could hit Tom with everything
he had, break a few of Tom's ribs, batter him all over the ring, and never stop his furious rushes or his wild swings for a moment.
Has Good Record.
Harry Greb is 27 years old and has been fighting eight years. He has met a lot of the best heavyweights in the country, among them Billy Miske, Bob Moha, Bat Levinsky, Jack Dillon, Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan and Bob Roper.
He knocked out Gunboat Smith in a round last year. To show what he can do to a fast, clever man,
he knocked out Young Ahearn in a round back in 1917, when Ahearn was good. He beat Bob Roper twice.
In 1919 Greb beat Bill Brennan In fifteen rounds, and fought him three times more In no decision bouts. He thinks he can beat Brennan any time, and the tough fight
Bill gave Dempsey didn't shake Greb's confidence." He's always looking for a Brennan match. As a middleweight Harry made a remarkable record, fighting all the
best of them. He has beaten Frank Mantell, Buck Crouse. Knockout Brown, Johnny Howard, Gus Christie, George Chip, Augie Ratner, Zulu Kid, Bob Moha, Frank Carbone, Leo Houck, and a raft of others, many with knockouts. He has fought no decision bouts with Mike Gibbons, Jeff Smith, Soldier Bartfield, Eddie McGoorty and any number of others.
Harry and Tom In Draw.
Last year Greb and Tom Gibbons fought two hard, even ten-round bouts in Pittsburgh. They were so evenly matched that they needed a longer fight to settle the matter of supremacy. Tom Gibbons claims to be America's light-heavyweight champion, but Greb stands just about as well as Tom In the record list, and will be a hard nut for the St. Paul boxer to crack.
Tommy Gibbon’ recent fighting has been of the championship style. He has met and knocked out a number of heavyweights, big, tough fellows, many of them, and has cut nearly every engagement short with
a clean punch in two or three rounds. Gibbons' fighting weight is about 173 pounds, which is seven pounds above Greb's favorite notch. Tom is a couple of Inches taller than Greb has a longer reach, and has lately become a more expert deliverer of the K. O. punch. But in sheer courage, gameness, aggressiveness and general all-around fighting ability he won't have any noticeable advantage over the smaller man. Greb loves fighting. He has that Jack Dempsey trait. Last summer, when he was watching Georges Carpentier at work at Manhasset, I asked him if he'd like to take Georges on.
Chip on Shoulder.
"Any time on a day's notice," smiled Greb. Later in the day he met Carpentier, talked boxing with him, suggested a match, and became so friendly that when I left them they had both pulled bunches of snapshots of their respective youngsters out of their pockets and were comparing their families.
I asked Greb if he'd fight Dempsey. Certainly, any time. He said he never enjoyed anything else quite as much as boxing with Dempsey in the training quarters,
because Jack was willing to mix it all the way, and that was Harry's meat.
But the widest smile came when he mentioned Bill Brennan, and the fight Brennan had given Dempsey.
Greb admitted that his idea of a life of ease and comfort would be fighting Brennan once a week for
a fair purse, until he retired from the ring because of old age. He wasn't boastful about it just mentioned that as a matter of fact.
As for Tom Gibbons, who was knocking out some heavyweight or other every week, or two. Greb liked nothing better than the prospect of meeting him and trying to upset that K. O. streak.
It would be a funny thing If Greb managed to nose Tom out in that fifteen rounds.
Carpentier, coming over in December, would find a change In the arrangements,
for he is matched to meet the American light-heavyweight champion and this fifteen round Gibbons-Greb bout will very nearly decide who is who in the class.