Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

Finding articles from an earlier time point does not mean there was great interest from the boxing public for the match. This is the danger of looking back 100 years and drawing conclusions based on sports writers or regional public opinions. The point of that article is someone stated Greb should have gotten a shot instead of Carp. Issue is Carp getting a fight with Dempsey not Greb is the fight the boxing public wanted to see in 1921. Public opinion usually drives promotors to make fights occur. Here we are in 1922 and Greb is not on the publics radar in terms of wanting to see him fight Dempsey. Certainly this could change that very day since the day that poll was issued Greb fought Gibbons and won. However that's not the point of contention.

 

In May 1920 Greb signed a contract to fight Dempsey in Buffalo. Dempsey was to get $50,000 (the same he got paid for Miske) and Greb was to get $15,000. Dempsey didnt sign. In October of 1920 Frank Mulkern of Milwaukee signed Greb to a contract to face Dempsey after Dempsey had spoken favorably of the match. When Greb signed Dempsey looked the other way. He instead tried to fight Gunboat Smith as a title defense. Trying to force Dempsey into a match Greb fought the Gunner first and KOd him in one round. Then T.S. Andrews travelled to South Bend (where the Greb-Smith bout was held) in order to try to secure a match between Dempsey and Greb but Carpentier had just beaten Levinsky in Rickard's fixed LHW championship which set up his million dollar gate, Dempsey was not about to face anyone as threatening as Greb with that bonanza on the table. Instead Kearns tried to match Dempsey with Bartley Madden so Greb fought Madden, once again trying to force a match with Dempsey, and dominated him. With Madden and Smith eliminated Dempsey signed to fight Bill Brennan, who Greb had dominated four times and Brennan damn near beat Dempsey. But the day before Dempsey defended against Brennan John McGarvey and John J. Bell of the Motor Square Garden club personally offered Kearns $50,000 with 50% of the gate to face Greb but after having so much trouble with Brennan Dempsey again begged off. Instead both Dempsey and Carp (who Greb was also actively pursuing) where shelved off from all competition in fear of losing before their big showdown. While training for Carpentier Kearns put out the word that he wanted anyone capable to come spar with the champion. Greb made it known he was on his way and Kearns promptly announced that they didnt need anyone else. In early 1922 Greb was matched with Tom Gibbons in a title eliminator for Dempsey. Greb dominated Gibbons and both Kearns and Dempsey stated that they would face Greb. Instead they went to Europe and when they came back they refused to face him. In the summer of 1922 John J. Bell made another offer to Dempsey, this time for $100,000 and 50% of the gate. Once again Kearns refused to consider the offer. In the summer of 1923 Kearns was again offered $100,000 with a percentage of the gate to face Greb up around Uniontown, and once again Kearns ignored the offer. And on and on and on. Everytime Kearns and Rickard tried to find a new setup for Dempsey to face Greb would chase after him and either beat him or be ducked by him trying to remove all obstacles to face Dempsey. Continually he was ignored. In 1925 Floyd Fitzsimmons held a poll of midwestern newspaperman asking who they would like him to match Dempsey with. Greb won the poll and Fitzsimmons approached Dempsey and Kearns. They agreed, yet when Greb wired that he was on a train for Chicago to sign papers Dempsey and Kearns stated they wouldnt be fighting Greb or anyone else that year...

Those are just a few of the instances. There were more dating back to 1918. Promoters dont toss around huge sums of money like that unless they think theyll have asses in the seats. They dont get this idea if one fighter isnt on anyones radar.

 

You know who was on the publics radar? The guy who never got a title shot...

 

Wills...certainly. But no matter who was the champion during that time Wills would have never gotten a title shot. The American culture had stacked the deck against him. Dempsey should be credited for pursuing a title match with Wills not once but at least twice and possibly three times. It was not the job of the hwt champion of the world to himself try to set up a title fight with a challenger......yet he did TRY. One man could not overcome the highly predudice American culture (very beginnings of liberal mindset concerning minorities in the states) and those that controlled boxing at that time. No non white challenger received a title shot from 1913 up until Louis in 1937.

 

Ring hwt rankings in 1924 and 1925 do not list Greb as a challenger for Dempseys title. Not in the top 10 in 1924. Not in the top 15 in 1925. If Greb was truly thought of as a seriously challenger for Dempseys title why is he not listed as such? Add to this at least in early 1922 he was not on the boxing publics radar based upon that poll. No mention whatsoever. Certainly managers wanted their fighter to make a fortune fighting Dempsey but that does not mean he was thought of seriously by those in the know or the lay fan. Where is Greb in the Ring ratings????????????

 

Whatever man, you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Boxing isnt a popularity contest. It doesnt matter what you think the public wanted or who you think the public knew or didnt know. What matters is who presents the best challenge and who has proven it. Two names top that list without question above every other Dempsey challenger: 1. Wills and 2. Greb. You want to defend Dempsey and argue that Wills was never going to get a shot because of society. Bull****. If that were the case society would have lined up behind another challenger. They didnt. Wills was always considered the #1 by the majority and always had that endorsement. Numerous promoters approached Dempsey for this fight. The only stumbling block in the way of that fight. The common denominator was always Dempsey. Not Kearns, not Rickard, not society, not politicians, Dempsey. Because when you moved the fight out of New York, or into the hands of a promoter who was willing, or when Kearns was no longer Dempsey's manager Dempsey was still wiggling his cowardly ass out of that fight. Period. Its a hard fact for deluded fan boys to accept but its all there in black and white for anyone who chooses to put more time into the effort than it generally takes some armchair internet historian to type "poll" into google. You can pretend that Greb wasnt highly regarded and didnt prove himself but at the end of the day none of that mattered anyway because Dempsey fought who he wanted. Nobody gave a **** about Miske. Nobody cared when he fought Gibbons. Brennan wasnt an overwhelming favorite as challenger. The public was not four square behind any of those guys. Didnt matter. Dempsey saw them as easy money. Yet guess who notched wins against all of them? Greb, who also just happened to have a lot of fans and people rallying behind him as an opponent for Dempsey regardless of what you choose to IMAGINE. But again, the sport isnt a popularity contest. The apple goes to the guy who proves himself. Outside of Wills who did that? Lets just compare:

Dempsey after winning the title:
Dempsey is offered $50,000 to face Greb. Declines.
Tried to defend against Gunboat Smith -Greb fought him instead and knocked him out.
Dempsey is offered $50,000+ to face Greb. Declines.
Tried to defend against Bartley Madden -Greb fought him instead and dominated him.
Defended against Miske -Greb had beaten him.
Those attending the Miske fight said Greb would have been a much better opponent.
Defended against Brennan -Greb had beaten him.
Defended against Carpentier -Carpentier had avoided a fight with Greb.
Starts ballyhoo for Gibbons -Greb defeats Gibbons in title eliminator.
Dempsey agrees that Greb would be a good challenger and calls him the fastest man hes ever seen.
Dempsey returns from Europe refusing to fight Greb.
Dempsey is offered $100,000+ to face Greb. Declines.
Dempsey defends against Gibbons.
Dempsey is offered $100,000+ to face Greb. Declines.
Greb tries to get a fight with Firpo. Firpo declines.
Dempsey defends against Firpo.
Promoters offer Firpo a fight with Greb. Firpo declines, instead offering to fight a total no-hoper.
Floyd Fitzsimmons takes a poll of midwestern newspapermen who they would most like to see Dempsey fight. Greb wins.
Floyd Fitzsimmons tries to set up a Greb fight with Dempsey. At first Dempsey agrees but as soon as he hears Greb is on his way to sign the contract Dempsey declines.

I could keep going.


Your argument has no weight whatsoever. Those fights, those offers, and those sums dont get generated if the public doesnt know who you are, if promoters arent interested in that match, and if you arent a deserving challenger. Once again, the only common denominator there is Dempsey. And, oddly given your comment about 1922, 1922 was the year when that match was most likely, had the most support, and had the most money behind it and the time Dempsey most obviously avoided it.

 

Let me enter the fray again.You post about Carpentier. "No one took Carpentier to be a legit threat as the fight [with Dempsey]
drew near ". Well pray tell me S, was these opponents of the murderous punching Joe Louis any more of a threat to Louis's crown , such as :
Harry Thomas
Jack Roper
John Henry Lewis who was a LH going blind in his last fight
Johnny Paycheck
Al McCoy
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio :
Answer HELL NO :
S, my point is A Georges Carpentier had as much credibility
fighting Jack Dempsey as these worthies above who Louis fought
and annihilated years after Dempsey retired, but as usual
Mr. Jack Dempsey gets the "shaft" for taking on Carpentier
in 1921. Dempsey gets blamed as usual by some on ESB for doing the same thing other boxing champions have done
since David slew Goliath. The business of boxing is also to
make money against fighters who draw fans to the arena.
Why this revulsion you obviously have of Dempsey for doing the same thing that other top fighters have done, certainly escapes me ?.
P.S. I also state that Harry Wills was certainly the No.!
challenger for Dempsey's crown, but to repeat once more,
they did sign for a bout which was canceled, when the
Michigan promoter couldn't come up with the contracted dough.
Even Harry Wills never blamed Dempsey personally, why should
you S, NINETY years later ?...

 

Because Ring didnt list fighters in more than one weight division and since Greb was champion of the MW division he couldnt be rated in the HW division. Go back and look at those ratings and tell which fighter during those two years beat the most men rated in their top ten. It wasnt Dempsey and it wasnt Wills, it was the MW champion. And what the **** does the Ring have to do with anything? Those were unofficial ratings put out by Rickard who gets blamed by Dempsey apologists for protecting Dempsey anyway.

 

Not bull**** at all. No minority fighter fought for the hwt championship for 24 years and only one in 29 years. You think that's just circumstance? You blame Dempsey for 24 years of prejudice in the boxing business? In fact you are blaming Dempsey for 400 plus years of American prejudice. No black challenger was getting a title shot no matter who was the champion during that time frame.

Again I say where is Greb in the publics spotlight prior to beating Gibbons? Public demand usually makes bouts happen especially in the hwy division. What did Fleischer say about Greb as a hwt or a proposed match vs Dempsey? Not a mention of this in 50 years at ringside. I am sure lots of fighters managers found promoters to offer Dempsey a fight.

 

What does Joe Louis, who fought two generations later, have to do with this argument? Is your argument that because Louis (who has a far better resume than Dempsey by a country mile) fought a few guys who had no chance almost two decades later that this somehow retroactively excuses a guy who spent most of his reign inactive while avoiding his best challengers only to face no hopers? Nice try.

Ill stack Louis 25 title defenses in 10 years over Dempsey's paltry 5 in 7 years any day of the week.

 

Wait wait wait. Lets back up here. Johnson lost his title in 1915. Between 1915 and 1919 Willard fought once. ONCE. During that time period WW1 prevent any more activity. He also didnt have a clear black #1 challenger during that period. Between 1919 and 1926 Dempsey fought FIVE times. From 1926 to 1928 Tunney fought twice. He also didnt have a clear black #1. After that the title changed hands numerous times and until Louis there were only two guys who successfully defended it: Schmeling and Carnera. During neither of their reigns or Sharkey or Baer was the #1 a black man. So lets not compare apples and oranges here. Im not blaming Dempsey for anything other than being complicit in avoiding tough fights which he was. Period. You can pretend his hands were tied but they werent. He had offers and opportunity and Wills and Greb both had the support.

I already illustrated that there were numerous offers for the fight. Promoters dont make offers without public demand. More to the point you said that in 1922 Greb wasnt a legit challenger. That is absolutely, categorically false. Only someone who knows nothing about Greb's career would even make that claim given how close he got in the minds of the public and promoters to this fight. A genuine, bonifide offer of $100,000 plus 50% of the gate in 1922 dollars tells you everything you need to know. If you think any bum could find a promoter to offer this then you have your head up your ass. Promoters calculate before hand how much a fight will draw in order to figure if they can make money or not. They arent in the business of offering charity to champions in the form of a huge payday at a loss. The fact that you would even try to push this stupid argument illustrates just how off base you are. You may not be able to admit you are wrong but this argument is stacked so far against you it makes you look clueless.

 

Have you found a reference to back up Mendoza's claim that Greb was rated number 2 just behind Wills?
I haven't.Here is his assertion.

"Greb was ranked #2 in Ring Magazine rating behind Wills whom Dempsey's management did not want to fight. Greb deserved a title shot from Dempsey".

To my knowledge Greb was never ranked at heavyweight.